Downlevel Support
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Downlevel SupportSomeone alerted me to this last week, though it's been out there for awhile in various posts. Apparently MSDE won't be supported in Vista (Longhorn), the next release of Windows. (There are blog posts here, here, and here)
It's a decision that I think perfectly shows the problems with the software industry. And I'm not necessarily picking on or blaming Microsoft, but showing the rub with software and upgrades, and it shows one place where Open Source has an advantage.
Here we have a free product, one that many people have used to develop applications that store data locally, perhaps in place of or in addition to data on a remote server. I know that JD Edwards OneWorld ERP software used it and I'm sure many more do.
So it's being used by developers and business people alike on their desktops and soon they'll be upgrading to Vista. Depending on your company, it's likely that you'll be forced into an upgrade sometime between July 2007 and Feb 2008 (assuming Vista comes out in Dec 2006/Jan 2007). So the question becomes what happens then? Does the XP -> Vista upgrade keep things working? Does it fail? Apparently on reinstall you'll get a message, but will it work? Tough questions to answer, and definitely an impact to consumers.
If you're Microsoft, I understand you want people to upgrade. Even if it's free, there's less patches to test, less support to give, and you're getting people started on upgrading their servers and other applications to SQL Server 2005. Makes sense from a business stand point, both in costs and revenue goals.
If you're a consumer, however, you now have to find a new app, build a new app, or upgrade your app. And that will mean costs for something that you've been using fine. Depending on how widespread your usage is, then you may pass on a Vista upgrade.
Eventually you'll have to upgrade. Applications always need enhancement, maturity, etc. and at some point it requires you to upgrade, even if you've developed it yourself. But you hope that you pick the time and it isn't tied to anything else being changed. Those dependencies only increase costs, and make things more difficult.
Open Source alleviates some of these issues if you have the staff to work on things, or if your vendor can. It's possible that some small tweak to MSDE might make it work fine on Vista, and if MSDE were to become open source, then perhaps this wouldn't be a big deal.
But you'd still have the support issues over time. Even the Linux versions from 5 years ago aren't well supported. Sure you'll find someone that might have a patch, but that occurs less and less as things change. Most people aren't qualified or willing to patch their software by forking. And old software is a fork, everyone wants the latest and greatest, or at least one of the last few versions.
I don't really like this decision, but it does make some sense for everyone. It's a good kick in the rear to get people moving onto the newer platform, though I wish we'd had a little more notice. Six months isn't that great.
It's also a place where I wish we could reform software copyright laws. I think that at some point MSDE should be open source along with all other software that's been End-Of-Lifed. Maybe it's 5 years after EOL, maybe something else, but we shouldn't just be forced and allowed to abandon something that's been created in the digital world.
Steve Jones
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tricky isn't it? But do we assume everyone will upgrade to vista anyway? I'm just finishing migrating sql7 on NT out to sql2k and w2k3 ( it was nearly w2k ) so I don't know if it's really a big deal just yet.
To be fair having had to support databases because vendors won't move forward ( do we still have any 6.5 installs because the vendor is still dragging their feet? ) I had a 6.5 db to support until 2 years after the release of sql2k because the vendor "was still working on the upgrade" with critical business apps you're sometimes almost held to ransome, and then of course you can't do the upgrade - it takes x consultants at xk $ or £ per day so that you spend out in less than a week what your DBA makes in a year -
So I sort of see microsoft's point of view, especially as they have sql 2005 express. I don't really have any views on open source - I sort of think the implied linux/windows debate is a waste of time - there need to be alternatives, that way choices can be made
[font="Comic Sans MS"]The GrumpyOldDBA[/font]
www.grumpyolddba.co.uk
http://sqlblogcasts.com/blogs/grumpyolddba/ -
The industry needs to move forward, and sometimes that means cutting support for a combination. The good news, if it is, is that moving a product from MDSE to SQL Server Express 2005 isn't that tricky. Unless you really did something god-awful in your data layer, it is as painless as can be.
As for open-source releases on EOL products, I doubt we'll ever see that unless the product line itself has been abandoned. Despite what MS often claims, the code inside many of these next generation systems contains a significant rehash of old code, and they would be in a disadvantageous position if they released it to the public.
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Just my opinion, but in making MSDE open source would not Microsoft have make available the code for real programmers to critique? Think of the chaos this could cause in actually fixing Microsoft's bad coding techniques and not propigating that code/technique/loophole in future releases.
I would welcome the concept of doing open source for MSDE 5 years after EOL for many products but Microsoft would only put it out 50 years after EOL; otherwise the public ridicule would be just to great to handle.
Who knows maybe they could even fix a problem or 2 in the new 2005 SQL by doing open source for MSDE.
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Steve,
Much like Microsoft can't support Windows 98 forever, I'm sure they don't want to support MSDE forever either. Since Microsoft is making SQL Server Express available free of charge, I don't think this should be a real issue. The real issue is one of security and stability. How long should Microsoft provide support and patches for an obsolete program?
Moving to open source is not an answer either. We recently received a request to host a website using MySQL for its database. We had to install an older version of MySQL onto our server in order to get the site working. The more current and more secure version of MySQL wouldn't work with this website without upgrading the site. Granted the upgrades were minor in this case, but that's not to say someone else might have it as easy. Open source or not, an upgrade in the database may be required.
Since SQL Server Express has everything MSDE had, and then some, and since it remains free of charge, I don't really see the problem.
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From a cursory overview, MSDE and SQL SERVER Express are equivilent, and there is little difference. Everything from MS is 'Express' these days.
Maybe it sounds faster. It's like putting 'Sport' on the end of a car's name, eg.... Dodge Caravan 'Sport', Ford Escort "Sport" etc....
Yours Truly,
Edward W. Stanley
Information Systems Architect Express
.....I feel more productive already.
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I think that the one who will most suffer by this decision is Microsoft. This will add one more reason not to upgrade to Vista. Currently Vista is working at a handicap given the need to upgrade hardware and the delays. They don't need for people who don't have any MSDE applications running deciding not to purchase Vista because it doesn't support MSDE.
Russel Loski, MCSE Business Intelligence, Data Platform
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Conditioning my above rant. There are improvements made to the Express from MSDE, some good some not as good. But its the biggest challenge of all in the IT world and possibly humanity in general to adapt to change.
I'm guessing the frustration comes from the fact that either you 'figured it out' and now assuming someone called it something different you now have to re-learn what you all ready felt you have a strong grasp upon, or there were too many lose ends in the existing version , the new version you figure will only have more things not understood. A third possibilty is some just like to 'bitch'.
I, myself probably have a alot of column A and a bit of column B situtation, going on. But I will use the analogy of a rat in a maze with many paths to find the cheese. If you are just hungry you wont pay mind to how you get there; While if you are tired of cheese, you might just want to order in.
I've decided i'm not very good at analogies.
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One of the best changes from MSDE to SQL Express is the inclusion of the Management Studio. I don't care what its called the ability to get at SQL data directly and repair damage caused by VP's right before a big presentation is gold.
ATBCharles Kincaid
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Force Microsoft to make their code Open Source? Sounds a bit draconian to me. I don't think any company has the obligation to make their source code public just because they stop supporting it. If they did that then they would be giving away a lot of money invested.
I am sure that much of the code in MSDE is still used somewhere by Microsoft so it is still proprietary. Also other vendors could use the code a base for their own product and gain an unfair competitive advantage.
Karen Gayda
MCP, MCSD, MCDBA
gaydaware.com -
Maybe I'm wrong, but this simply sounds like an upgrade. That said, we're going through all kinds of issues with upgrades at my company. Emphasis for IT planning is in two places, new development & stability. New development is moving forward into VS2005 & SQL2005, but with stability all the old code is stuck in SQL2000 & VS2003. We've already skipped a version of Office and there is serious debate that we may skip Vista. Something like this, requiring us to go back & rewrite/upgrade existing apps may be the last nail in the coffin for the new OS.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
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"...But you'd still have the support issues over time. Even the Linux versions from 5 years ago aren't well supported. Sure you'll find someone that might have a patch, but that occurs less and less as things change. Most people aren't qualified or willing to patch their software by forking. And old software is a fork, everyone wants the latest and greatest, or at least one of the last few versions...."
Keep in mind that MSDE/SQL Server 7 will be 8 years old this year, and MSDE2/SQL Server 2000 is 6 years old.
So I'm not finding the argument for Open Source very compelling in this case.
Dodge Caravan 'Sport', Ford Escort "Sport" etc....
Good one, Edward!!
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Grant said, "Emphasis for IT planning is in two places, new development & stability. New development is moving forward into VS2005 & SQL2005, but with stability all the old code is stuck in SQL2000 & VS2003."
Good points. I'm a great fan of SQL2000. SQL2005 has some new features that I'm not likely to get to for a while. As to Visual Studio, this is a different story. It's a day and night story. We have found so many things that are better and more stable in 2005 than 2003. I cringe having to load an old 2003 project. (I cry when having to even look at VB6 code)
I can manage all my SQL2000 servers from Management Studio. If I get into something touchy I just RDP into the server and work from that desktop.
Look, 95 and ME are gone. 98 is EOL'd. I'm sure that you are not still supporting WFW 3.11. Anybody still have coax connected NIC cards? Technology changes.
So Vista doesn't support MSDE and J.D.Edwards will have to make changes to the Demo Junior CD. At Edwards per module price I'm not crying to hard for them. We switched from MSDE to SQL Express and it took a team of three just six hours.
ATBCharles Kincaid
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For Win XP the standard support does not end until 2011 and extended support until 2013. If you can't get off of MSDE by 2013 you need to fire your developers and DBAs. Actually, if we keep following the current trends, we will have yet another version of Windows, Office, SQL, and Visual studio by 2011 anyway. This is good because with all the extra "security" and enhaned UI in Vista and Office 2007 my users are actually much less productive. We'll see what happens in 2011.
Joshua Perry
http://www.greenarrow.net
Downlevel SupportViewing 14 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
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