US IT
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US IT
First my apologies to the rest of the world since I know this is an international community, but I'm a US guy and this caught my eye.
The past few years have been full of articles and columns about how much offshoring and outsourcing is occurring away from the US and other countries and moving to places where the workforce is paid less. India receives more than its share of blame for jobs being moved overseas.
However I've never thought it was that bad and this eWeek article agrees with me. It shows a few select individuals from the US that are working hard on their careers by coming out of college, working at companies, and making a difference right away.
There are 3 profiles and related to this site, the third one is for a database administrator. Kathy Pham, of Georgia Teach (not UVA, but still an ACC school), is pre-med and going to work for the Bioinformatics Lab in Ga Tech as a DBA. She wants to do research, so the CS degree will help there. She's handling the back end for all the gene data they are dealing with and apparently enjoying it.
I'm not sure I'd want an intern as a DBA, but I think it's great that our field is offered as a focus of a CS degree and there are people interested in focusing their efforts there. Years ago when I was a CS major everyone was a programmer with only one database class offered. These days I see more and more classes being offered to help students learn about databases.
So now all you DBAs out there be ready for more competition in the future. Keep your skills sharp and ensure you're one of those senior folks that helps to train the next generation of SQL Server professionals.
Steve Jones
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/way0utwest
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My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com -
On the other hand, I could tell you about all the job opportunities I've lost out on due to offshoring and H1-B's. (Not to mention decisions to hire a junior level developer because the could be paid less...)
And how are unpaid / underpaid interns any gauge of the professional tech industry?
Ooops, am I letting my bitterness show?
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Steve,
Dont’ worry at all for that. Lots of us we can’t afford to live or work there but anyway, is a good example for anyone in research, thoughs and overall, leading-edge technology. In other things of course not but it's another history, isn't?
Here, in EU we’ve got UK as inmediate reference as well as countries as Germany or France. Nevertheless my country is far far away to reach a minimum part of your “intelectual carrying capacity”. Here, our main figure is tourism and savages traditions..
When I worked in Madrid (ES) I had a couple of India’s colleagues which had mastering skills on english languages and a good
methodology when they were required for to write code. For them, duties were high and I remember clearly big capacity of sacrifice.
Reviewing Kathy Pham’s case
"I'm working in a biomedical field and helping with cancer research; it's important that people know that there's so much more out there that you can do with your degree."
We must use more often our imagination, trying to redefine old concepts maybe. If we’re able to think that from our positions as DBA have a great capacity then could change much things thanks to techonology.
I'm trying hard for that.
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The big company not only offshored to other countries, they even hire H1 visa to save money. I walked in to one big company to interview, half the employees are Indians. I thought I was in India. Most of the young people now do not choose IT as their major anymore. As far as I know a few years ago computer science is a hot major. This year in my son's high school graduate, less than 5% will choose computer science as their major because they think there is no future in computer science. In my city, one of college has the biggest IT department, 95% of the students are the one got layoff and go back to retrain.
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The biggest problem I see in off-shoring isn't immediate, but long-term. A lot of the jobs being sent overseas are the ones where the future leaders of the community started in the past. WIthout those starting places, a lot of the people who would grow into somethings pecial, are fighting to just stay alive in the industry. That's the saddest effect, and sadly it is a long-term one where by the time industry realizes its economic impact, it will be too late to fix.
It isn't surprising though, because North America in general is shaping to be a pure consumer/service society, and seems to be hell bent on destroying its own manufacturing base. I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how we can survive when we don't make anything we consume? Here in Canada, we actually ship the raw materials to countries so they can make stuff and ship it back to us for purchase. It's one thing to do this between a major trading partner like the US, where the economic well-being of one affects the other directly, but where is the logic in sending raw material to countries that barely trade at all with North America?
But then, long-term planning seems absent in most policy today.
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What's your job, if you work in databases? It's learning.
If you never learn new stuff, you'll lose. If you start as a coder and stay a coder, eventually someone will do as well as you for less, for any number of good reasons.
Today's coder has to be striving to be tomorrow's analyst - the guy who needs to be local because he needs to be involved in the day to day running of the company.
An international workforce isn't something to debate, it's a fact. Just like my dbs now run on big arrays of SATAs pretending to be one big SCSI drive - instead of a rack of SCSIs that I manage (and why? because it's 1/4 the price and my boss insists on not wasting money), you don't have to like it, you have to adjust for it.
If someone else can do what you are doing for less, then you need to be doing something that is worth paying for your local presense - not because its right or wrong, but because that's how it is.
Roger L Reid
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Steve, ignoring the offshoring issues - a good intern is a great thing (as long as you're willing to lose them or start paying them a lot more in a couple years).
What I wonder about is this person's background in relational theory. I mean, no one goes to college to learn "S.Q.L. Programming", do they? It would be GREAT to hear that she has a solid theoretical background, so that she understands the results she is after.
My biggest issue (having worked with many relational db products over the past 25 years) with MS SQL Server these days is its communities focus on the language rather than the model. Most "SQL Server" people I meet are pretty vague about the difference between a "SQL Server" and a "relational database" - in fact most criticisms I hear of relational databases is usually an S.Q.L. issue, NOT a relational issue (yes, I realize that for the most part, if it's an issue for S.Q.L. it's GOING to be an issue for the relational database, since it's about the only interface most of us have to the relational model).
Any younger people care to comment on what is taught about databases in colleges these days? Far too many of us learned on the job, and never got the underlying ideas right - leading to a proliferation of really bad databases I need to support as a modern dba (oh for the days when I could just go to the developer and show them how to normalize something or improve an index).
Roger L Reid
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(First, let me say that I tried to post a reply using Firefox and it seems to have been lost. So forgive me a duplicative post surfaces at some point.)
I'm not a younger person, but I can say that I think you raise a good point.
A DBA internship is a great idea. The data is the key to an organization, and learning that part of the business is what a lot more U.S. students should be doing.
From what I have seen, too many U.S. schools teach theory over practical topics, apparently because the practical topics are too "vocational." Even the eWeek article assumes this when it states that a lot of the jobs going overseas "are for the most part low-level jobs."
As they say in the theater, there are no small roles, only small actors. We need to get away from this idea that students can't be taught topics that are supposedly beneath them. Other countries are teaching those topics, and that is why companies are going to them. Despite automation, someone is still going to do some of the manual coding that some consider grunt work.
As a result, we have too many U.S. students who can't do basic SQL or relational database design. I don't mean reading C.J. Date or being able to make queries with the Microsoft Access GUI. I mean learning how to write SQL to count, group, filter, etc. SQL is like knowing basic math for people going into the IT field.
I think internships, while they may not help those U.S. workers currently affected, will definitely help the next generation of students compete when it comes time for companies to make workforce decisions. Maybe there can be a push to have grants or scholarships that support IT education in practical, real-world topics. Perhaps there are some already -- I hope so -- but there should be more.
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A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html -
Having been a victim of offshoring (They had me train the Indian guys that replaced me) for the price of one of me they got 2 of them and a manager to do my work. I think offshoring is fine as long as the costs of offshoring are equal to the price of doing it here. We can't give management what they want for the price the Indians and other countries give them. There is no way to compete, there is no economical way to retrain for the jobs that are still here. It took 3 years for people to start hiring again and then the salaries dropped by 30%. I'm doing the same job I did 5 years ago and getting paid a lot less. Oh and I just got layed off again so no bitterness here. On the plus side I'm getting interviews at least so the situation has improved.
Scott
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Steve - I thought you'd find this interesting....I have an India Link where the same course offered by you guys is being conducted in India for Rs.5612/- (inclusive of all taxes) - works out to roughly hold your breath - $125/ (as opposed to $2200/-) - even though the workshop is 3 days as opposed to SSC's four days - for that price I can buy a round trip ticket to India, attend the workshop, say hi to friends and family and come back with a fair amount of change left in the pocket..
With such a remarkable price difference is it really any suprise that more & more jobs are being sent overseas...
Steve - you & Brian etc. still have a distinct edge over this Indian training Institute - your reputation precedes you..
**ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI !!!** -
Didn't read Scott's response before posting mine, but this is about it..the bottom line...
"...for the price of one of me they got 2 of them and a manager to do my work."..really, how can you compete with that...money talks and never louder than when big change is being jangled in company pockets...
**ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI !!!** -
I talked to my manager hiring an intern. He said one intern = 10 offshore in India. Case closed.
SQL - No school teaches SQL and my old VP thought SQL was so easy anyone can pick this up. Guess what, not everyone can pick it up and not many people willing to spend time to learn. The result - procedures were a mess.
DBA - I saw some DBA could not write DTS and SQL themselves. They just knew how to backup and restore database.
Of course, I am just talking one company. Don't take it too seriously.
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You're absolutely right about there being zero training around for MS SQL Server...if at all, the ratio between training for Oracle and training for MS SQL is about a 100 to 1 and even at that it may be an optimistic ratio...
**ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI !!!** -
I love the eweak.com, I mean eweek.com, article that refers to a study from an "American Sentinal University." If you go to their site you see they offer only 12 undergraduate degrees and three are IT-related. Yeah, you think they are biased?
Back here in the real world you are delusional if you think outsourcing isn't a problem.
First they came for the farmers and I wasn't a farmer so I didn't do anything.
Then they came for the manufacturers and I wasn't a manufacturer so I didn't do anything.
Then they came for the labororers and I wasn't a laborer so I didn't do anything.
Then they came for IT and there was no one left to help me.
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Actually, I erred. They offer four undergraduate degrees and three are IT-related.
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