January 18, 2011 at 10:07 pm
We have been looking for a senior DBA for months. We have gone through two recruiters, postings on Dice and Monster, and to date I have had two interviews (the hiring manager has had a few more, but probably less than 6 in about four months). Of those one was vaguely qualified, the other was not, neither was what we want.
We are not even getting to the point of noting salary, so we are not offering too little. The job is in a western suburb of Chicago so I would think there are quite a few people in the area.
Are we not advertising in the right places?
Are there key words that stir up more interest? We are doing development and production, it is actually pretty interesting (I think).
Or is it really an employee's market right now, and no one (good) is looking?
In contrast I am hiring an infrastructure manager (network, servers, sans, vendords, etc.) and am being flooded with resumes, some who look really good.
Those of you who are really, really good -- where would you look if unemployeed? What boards, go to a recruiter, etc?
Is this us, or just the nature of the job market right now?
January 18, 2011 at 10:21 pm
If you are willing to cover my immigration, moving and housing costs from South Africa, I'll come work in Chicago 😛
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This thing is addressing problems that dont exist. Its solution-ism at its worst. We are dumbing down machines that are inherently superior. - Gilfoyle
January 18, 2011 at 11:45 pm
I have posted my resume on monster.com, linkedin.com, sqlpass.org, and a few other sites. Unfortunately, most of the calls I have gotten are not SQL oriented or have been for junior level positions.
I do have one potential iron in the fire local to me that looks promising if the company gets the contract, but still waiting for a second interview. This company looks like a great company to work for and even if I get paid the same as I am currently making, I will get a good pay raise. Benefits are less expensive meaning a bit more money in my pocket.
I have been reviewing opportunities on the job link here on ssc, as well as on monster.com and sqlpass.org.
January 19, 2011 at 5:51 am
Henrico: Hey, don't tempt me, but unfortunately no one can deal with the US Government, and we need someone soon.
Lynn: Thanks. That's more in line with what I was curious -- there are a number of these sites, and all have some affiliated job board. Does anyone pay attention?
Our recruiters are pushing us to first Monster, then to Dice. We had almost no response from the former, and not much from the latter. And most of the response we got was pathetic.... why is it someone looking to get a job cannot write a resume that makes sense, is readable, has proper spelling... but that's another thread.
So for those who are really good -- assuming you will be so kind -- hypothetically if you were suddenly in need of a job, where do you look first? Do you make a call to a recuirter? if a big firm, which?
Do you hit one or more job boards looking? Which first, which just jump out at you as "that is where I will find something?
January 19, 2011 at 6:32 am
Have you tried announcing it at a local users group meeting? If I needed to hire someone or was looking for a job myself, I'd be sure to mention it there.
January 19, 2011 at 6:44 am
Technically speaking....
I have a corporation in Canada. Can't you hire my consulting corporation to contract for you in the states? Or are there laws against that?
Again technically speaking. I could come in visit for a few days to strike a deal and then come do the work remotely from Canada.
If India can do it, why not someone else?
This is more theoretical at this point as I have no intention to move to Chicago in the near Ever :hehe:. But shorter term consulting to remove the immediate pressure might interest me.
January 19, 2011 at 9:23 am
Doug Lane (1/19/2011)
Have you tried announcing it at a local users group meeting? If I needed to hire someone or was looking for a job myself, I'd be sure to mention it there.
Excellent question -- what sort of groups?
Long ago and far away, in the Digital Equipment days, there were Local Users Groups for DEC users. So I get the idea, it is great.
Where does one find such for SQL oriented, or even developers in general? Are there organized structures, or just ad hoc groups I need to stumble across?
January 19, 2011 at 9:30 am
Ninja's_RGR'us (1/19/2011)
Technically speaking....I have a corporation in Canada. Can't you hire my consulting corporation to contract for you in the states? Or are there laws against that?
Again technically speaking. I could come in visit for a few days to strike a deal and then come do the work remotely from Canada.
If India can do it, why not someone else?
This is more theoretical at this point as I have no intention to move to Chicago in the near Ever :hehe:. But shorter term consulting to remove the immediate pressure might interest me.
Short answer is: Not interested, need a permanent team member.
To your "theoretical" aspect however, I have a fair amount of experience in that border in both directions, and the short answer is "it depends".
If you were making a few trips across, you are a "business visitor" and no issues.
At some point you make one too many, and they decide to stop you and send you back. It is really at the whims of the border agent, how you answer, and how they are feeling.
Unless you get a work permit/visa. NAFTA permits explicit exceptions for programmer/analysts. If you prepare properly and make the case you fit that defintion, it is ALMOST automatic you can get a work permit for a few years, and cross as many times as you like. Take care you fit the definition -- I got one and had a lot of trouble as I am in management, but was able to craft the application with absolute truth, but using the right words to ensure I fit the NAFTA definition and was not applying in the more broad sense where there are quotas and more rules.
AS someone who has had employees from both countries try to cross one too many times without the paperwork -- do not do it. They just send you home, but they REMEMBER, and you are then screwed in terms of trying to get the permit, and you won't cross again as a casual business visitor.
January 19, 2011 at 10:10 am
Ferguson,
Just to be upfront: I have nil interest in working anywhere that discusses freezing weather as a common occurrence during any portion of the year (I live in AZ), but I'd like to discuss/help you out a bit here.
First, I've found that Monster and Dice tend to be hit or miss in both directions. Not only do a lot of the applicants come across as so much chum in the water, but the job descriptions are massive buzzword fests that ask for gods.
So, to that, would you mind posting your job opportunity here? I'd like to review it and perhaps we can help you nail it down a bit. I'm currently working on a series here with SSC about jobs and the like, and one of them is in regards to the wording and components that most experienced DBAs/Developers will read from a job description.
However, I'm a consultant, which means I swap jobs a lot. I'll use Dice and Monster, but I find that usually they really want a god of the machine, a VB/ASP developer who can also double as their DBA, or actually have a full team of DBAs on staff and actually wrote the definition correctly. The third is the least most common of those options.
I quite often resort to using consulting/headhunting firms to open the necessary doors for me. They know my track record, and aren't afraid of using me to shore up previously poor consultant's work and/or head to the first interview to help interview the client to figure out what they need. They also tend to lend more weight to my references, once the firm itself has established a good track record with the client.
They are also, often, incredibly expensive to the end client. Namely: You. You pay my cut, two headhunter cuts (one for your company, one's my recruiter), and an additional overhead to the firm itself.
I know of DBAs out there looking for work. The question is, do you really need a Level III? Check out this article[/url], see if it might help you any. I wrote it, so sorry for the shameless plug, but it may help you nail down your requirements.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 19, 2011 at 10:34 am
Craig Farrell (1/19/2011)
Ferguson,First, I've found that Monster and Dice tend to be hit or miss in both directions. Not only do a lot of the applicants come across as so much chum in the water, but the job descriptions are massive buzzword fests that ask for gods.
Ya we had one like that here recently. The guy wanted like 20 - 25 years combined experience in SQL server / .net / perf tuning / c#, and most of it in the recent versions (which are all 10 years old or less).
I've seen a job posting that seems to come from you. It seems like one of the better job posting I've seen recently. I have no improvement to suggest. Hopefully Craig will spot something to hep you out.
January 19, 2011 at 11:18 am
Ferguson (1/18/2011)
Those of you who are really, really good -- where would you look if unemployeed? What boards, go to a recruiter, etc?Is this us, or just the nature of the job market right now?
Well, here's my two cents...
First, I have my resume posted on Dice. I used to have it on Monster, but gave up on that avenue - it seems that most of the stuff out there (IMHO) isn't technical enough.
Most of my contacts come through recruiters. They get their job placement requests, and start searching the job boards for qualified candidates. All of my jobs have come through a recruiter.
I keep an Outlook contacts "database" of every recruiter I have spoken with in the area. When I'm looking, I contact each and every one of them, and send them a latest copy of my resume.
Most of the companies that post directly on Dice for positions don't know what they're doing. (Okay, the bigger ones do.) I've been contacted by/responded to things on Dice where they don't know that they don't know what to ask (and that double in there is deliberate!)
If the link that Ninja posted is for this position that you're talking about, I'd agree that it is well written.
If you're bringing people in for an interview, and they aren't measuring up, then my question is why/how did they slip through the phone interview process? What kind of questions are you asking that they are able to get a face-to-face interview with you without knowing what they're talking about? Here is an excellent set of database screening questions[/url].
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
January 19, 2011 at 11:22 am
Craig Farrell (1/19/2011)
Ferguson,Just to be upfront: I have nil interest in working anywhere that discusses freezing weather as a common occurrence during any portion of the year (I live in AZ), but I'd like to discuss/help you out a bit here.
@Craig - just to be upfront, I have zero interest in working anywhere that having a heat index above 110 (Fahrenheit) is a common occurrence. :-D:w00t:
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
January 19, 2011 at 11:26 am
Hm, interesting find, Ninja.
There are a number of concerns, from my perspective, with that posting. For reference I'll post it here with notes:
Disclaimer: All quoted material being used for reference here comes from the link http://jobs.sqlservercentral.com/job/database-administrator-developer-chicago-il-west-loop-iclops-f1a5482dce/?d=1&source=site_search_featured. It is used without permission and I have no direct professional association with either SSC nor ICLOPS.
Alright, the Overview is nice, but it's aimed at the wrong target.
Through the integration of various data sources, ICLOPS creates the ability for physicians and organizations to view and compare individual and overall patient outcomes and performance -- without input of data.
This screams two things to me. ONE: HIPAA law issues with the individual patient outcomes may be a problem because of TWO: No end user data entry. That the end user isn't doing data entry means they DON'T have proprietary access to the patient's charts, such as their doctor. All sorts of warning bells went off in my head at the second paragraph... of the fluff. It's a massive SSIS job, apparently... with some SSAS data massaging.
Note: I haven't even REACHED the real job description yet, but this sounds more production data issue cleanup than anything interesting like designing of imports, working with specs, or optimizations. I'm already wandering off...
Now, let's break down the summary. All summaries are usually taken sentence by sentence at face value. It's what the business wrote up before someone got involved in the skillset requirements. This is our best shot at really figuring out what you want.
POSITION SUMMARY
The Database Administrator will facilitate the rapid growth of the ICLOPS Registry database and client users.
Oh gods, they're out of datasize scope. Welcome to weekend work.
The DBA will enhance data integrity by implementing processes for security,
Lovely, developer vs. DBA wars on who gets to do what where, and there's nothing in place. Implementing vs. refining here is an important word difference.
assisting development teams on methods of avoiding data corruption;
Training developers? Do THEY know you're hiring someone to do this? Are they dedicated DB developers or are we retraining those elegant Ext JS web coders? The difficulty of the two tasks is phenomenally different.
improve database recoverability by implementing backup and recovery procedures and testing recoverability; and increase database availability/user experience by analyzing root causes of production problems
Standard DBA tasks, no worries here...
and developing solutions for production,
Explain this a LITTLE deeper. Either I'm developing T-SQL or I'm doing some other kind of developer work. The difference here is this: Is it still under the DBA purview, or am I doing DB Development work AS WELL AS being a DBA? Two jobs in one usually suck, and attract different types of personalities.
capacity planning, and database performance. As part of the data team, the Database Administrator will report to the chief of the database team, our Sr. SQL Developer, and will work with the Systems Administrator to collaboratively plan the system for growth.
Wait a second. You don't have a serious security system in place, yet you've got a SR SQL Developer (Note, NOT DBA), and you want me to put that plan in motion as the non-Senior?
I'm out the door. I haven't even looked at your requirement specs afterwards, I'm GONE. I want nothing to do with this. I don't have the power to do the job you're requesting, which is to rein in your wayward developers and get security in place, and your Senior obviously didn't do the job before I got there. Nope, see ya. Between the fluff overview and this summary, you're walking into a political nightmare that may be two jobs at once.
I however tend to be able to be picky. Let's say our prospective DBA isn't put off by the idea of donating every other Saturday for a year to get things on track and a political s***storm until things get settled in and he can re-train his new manager.
SUCCESS
In order to be successful in this role, you need to:
Fully understand the purposes and structures of ICLOPS staging and warehouse data models and conceptually relate source data models to warehouse data model. Also understand how other ICLOPS processes use all data, and its client impact.
And I fail this requirement already. I've worked in healthcare and never seen this thing. I can't succeed.
Develop databases to transform data from sources to data warehouse. Make required corrections for errors identified by consolidation database, or by other error checking processes, in a timely fashion.
So, staging databases that get imports from a variety of sources (why so many staging databases?).
Apparently the consolidation database already has a set of business rules I need to massage a bunch of disparate data into. This isn't DBA work, it's SSIS Developer work. So, two jobs so far.
Evaluate various external data sources and extrapolate their underlying relational models. Correctly identify all elements needed by ICLOPS databases within source data.
And reverse architecture work... They're not even giving me the data dictionaries, this is blind reverse engineering. Oh, joy. That's a fun job... by itself.
Test, troubleshoot and debug T-SQL development.
Ooooh, and I get to be a DB Developer by peer reviewing and/or directly creating T-SQL code. Maybe. Does this go back to the SSIS Developer component or is this something different?
Develop and implement reporting packages and services for clients. Translate report or metrics requirements into usable charts, graphs and reports.
Oh, c'mon, now you want SSAS/RS for your charts/graphs and what not too?
Complete and maintain databases in accordance with ICLOPS and common architectural standards, as they evolve. Document flows and changes to the system.
And now a tech writer. When the hell do I fit THAT responsibility into this?
Attend and actively participate in development and implementation meetings.
WHEN?! Tuesday at 2 AM?
Ensure that storage, archiving, backup and recovery procedures are functioning correctly.
Look! It's a DBA task! (to paraphrase some Blues Brothers) Look, they've got everything here!
Meet users' access requirements and work to resolve their problems.
And back to the Architect tasks, or is this Business Analyst? Would have to interview and discuss this point as to where this would fall under.
Create and maintain reports using Reporting Services.
Work with both internal and external customers to understand ad-hoc requests and make recommendations for data analysis.
And BI work....
I'll skip the rest of this. This requirement should be posted on Ladders.com. Offer 250k or better. This skillset is primarily well trained by their permanent employer of 10-15 years. You cannot get broad experience across the boards like this unless you're constantly switching jobs or your employer loves you and has invested heavily in you, which inspires (usually) enough loyalty you have no reason to move on unless you're being beaten in the mop room... with the mop. The other side of that: If you're constantly switching jobs, you're mercenary... It's about the money. Noone ever pays properly for jobs that want this much work from you.
It's a buzzword fest, or you're walking into a jack-of-everything position. The problem with that is either you're VERY VERY good at this, or your priorities keep switching so fast you never get *anything* done. It will be very difficult to have any sense of accomplishment at this job unless you can wrangle the employer down to a slightly-reasonable expectation of a 60 hour work week. There is no way I'd take this on a non-hourly basis.
Reading through this job description is enough work for 3 unique level II employees. Good luck to this company unless they're offering god salaries.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 19, 2011 at 11:28 am
WayneS (1/19/2011)
Craig Farrell (1/19/2011)
Ferguson,Just to be upfront: I have nil interest in working anywhere that discusses freezing weather as a common occurrence during any portion of the year (I live in AZ), but I'd like to discuss/help you out a bit here.
@Craig - just to be upfront, I have zero interest in working anywhere that having a heat index above 110 (Fahrenheit) is a common occurrence. :-D:w00t:
Phew! One excellent DBA I don't have to be concerned about competing with me locally! There's few enough out here that 3-4 more in the market could tip the balance excessively at the upper end.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
January 19, 2011 at 11:31 am
Ferguson (1/18/2011)
Or is it really an employee's market right now, and no one (good) is looking?In contrast I am hiring an infrastructure manager (network, servers, sans, vendords, etc.) and am being flooded with resumes, some who look really good.
Didn't mean to have multiple posts here, but I thought about these statements and wanted to say...
With the economy the way it is right now, and no end in sight, I don't think that it is an employees market. There is just too many people unemployed for that. However, it's possible that the good ones are in good jobs, and they aren't looking around right now because of the economy.
This leaves those who have ever touched a database being in the market as a self-proclaimed "DBA".
User groups were brought up. I see two in the Chicago area - reach out to them. Those that run the user groups are experienced enough to be able to help you get the word out - and it's free to you!
BTW, when you do find someone, how about coming back here and posting through what avenues you were finally able to connect?
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
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