March 15, 2012 at 10:47 am
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
When you're on a job interview, you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you, though it may not always feel like it, especially in a bad job market. If I'm on an interview and their questions are all definitions or expecting specific answers, I tend to stay away. If the interview is "how would you approach, what did you do when, and what do you think of", then I know it'll be a better position.
Yes, this is true! And even in a bad job market (I was let go June 2010), I was picky. Last thing I wanted was to take a job that I knew I wouldn't want to keep. I am lucky to have not become That Desperate. I know that not everyone is so lucky and that many feel they need to "say anything to land it" while there were times I left interviews when we would both be candid: this isn't a fit. saves everyone's time.
When I interviewed here, they were interested in my degree not being tech, and how did I come to be technical? They found out that I was smart and could either figure things out for myself or go root out potential solutions until I found one that worked. They also discovered that I consider data to be an organization's most precious asset, after its people. I had not yet known that they feel the exact same way here - that the data is GOLD but teh people are Diamonds.
We moved into discussion of a "mini data warehouse" I had created and the cool thing was that they were excited about what I was saying, how I did it, why/what the users got out of it, and I was excited about their explaining what was happening here (very early in DW building - in at The Beginning!)
I am not surprised to still be very happy here, coming up on 1 year. They knew what they were getting with me and I knew what I was getting with them. It's unfortunate that it rarely works out that way for both sides due to misplaced expectations. Or someone simply not being honest.
Sounds like the contract position I took before the position I have now. I took it just to slow the bleeding from my savings so my ex-wife and kids, and I didn't find us on the street.
I really enjoyed the interview process for where I am now. Even the manager asked technical questions. I did really well with everyone and now I'm not working in Denver again.
March 15, 2012 at 10:48 am
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
... all started off by Paul's poisonous attitude, not a sudden decision on the grounds that inherited parishes and sees were a bad thing.Paul's anti-marriage poison (which was completely opposed to the views of the apostoles, and just one of many causes of his feuding with James and with Peter, both of whom - like others of the 11 - married) gave crazy people a handle to force extremist views on the churches...
I have to disagree with calling what Paul wrote as "poisonous". I would say to call Paul anti-marriage is pulling that particular passage out of context. In the entire passage which even goes back in to chapter 6 (remember chapters and verses weren't in the original writings) Paul is addressing sexual immorality and the sexual nature of mankind and he specifically says that if a man can't keep his hands off he should get married. He also later says God has made some people to be married and others not to be. And I think verses 17-24 really sum up Paul's main point. Be content with the state you are in. His other point about staying single is that it allows you to remain focused on the things of God and having a wife can distract you from that. Christ made a similar point Luke 14 where he says if you don't hate your family you can't be his disciple. In context He's saying that you have to prioritize following Him first and then do the other things.
Okay, that's my sermon for the month. I usually try to avoid these things because y'all are smarter than I am and can pick me apart.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 15, 2012 at 10:51 am
GabyYYZ (3/15/2012)
Is it too much to ask that a DBA candidate, who says he has 10 years experience with SQL Server, know what a primary key is, or know the difference between DML and DDL? My boss just shook his head afterwards.:crazy:
Edit: Maybe we're just too demanding.
Does he have 10 years worth of experience, or just one year 10 times?
March 15, 2012 at 10:53 am
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Along came a better job where they didn't care what I called things, they drilled me on how I built things, what I would do in Situation X or Y...
So perhaps the idea is to tailor the questions to the applicants' backgrounds. Ask me how I would do something and I will tell you. ask me how to use FunkyTermX and I might not know. I don't know CompSci 101 since I never had it.
But to not know what a primary key is and to be interviewing for any kind of database-intensive job ... ?? Scariest part is he maybe found a job as lead DBA !!!
I don't think I've lost jobs because of terminology, but there are always technical terms thrown out there that either I don't know or can't recall when on an interview. I couldn't remember Venn diagram one time and called it the circles that intersect.
I still can't give a great definition of the normal forms but I can tell a good design from a bad one and can usually tell you what NF a design is in, if any.:-P
My theory sucks because I'm self-taught as well. But I've always gotten the job done and had employers pleased with my work.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 15, 2012 at 11:20 am
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Along came a better job where they didn't care what I called things, they drilled me on how I built things, what I would do in Situation X or Y...
So perhaps the idea is to tailor the questions to the applicants' backgrounds. Ask me how I would do something and I will tell you. ask me how to use FunkyTermX and I might not know. I don't know CompSci 101 since I never had it.
But to not know what a primary key is and to be interviewing for any kind of database-intensive job ... ?? Scariest part is he maybe found a job as lead DBA !!!
I don't think I've lost jobs because of terminology, but there are always technical terms thrown out there that either I don't know or can't recall when on an interview. I couldn't remember Venn diagram one time and called it the circles that intersect.
I still can't give a great definition of the normal forms but I can tell a good design from a bad one and can usually tell you what NF a design is in, if any.:-P
My theory sucks because I'm self-taught as well. But I've always gotten the job done and had employers pleased with my work.
Considering the arguments about NFs that I've seen between people who have different opinions about what they mean, even though they agree completely on the memorized definitions, I wouldn't consider that a handicap on your part.
I've actually had someone insist that using Date or DateTime datatypes meant a violation of 1NF, because "they store multiple values - day, month, and year - in one column". That person actually changed his mind when I pointed out that dates in SQL Server are actually stored as a single atomic value of the number of days since a baseline date (usually 1/1/1900), and it's the presentation layer that translates that into more complex formats. Yes, presented with that, he actually changed his mind about 1NF. That was a very, very "learned" debate, with citations and quotations being fired like bullets from a 10-guage on full-auto.
So, no flaw on your part if you don't have it memorized. Even doing so doesn't necessarily lead to any sort of practical result.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 15, 2012 at 11:28 am
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."
Well, "shredding a recordset" to me means rendering it unreadable and unrecoverable so I would presumably have lost that job too. Maybe you could enlighten us: what does it mean?
I came across "shredded document" (or something like that - I'll recognise it if I see it again, but won't use it) used as a term for a clustered index on the nodes of an xml document for the first time ever just yesterday; quite a bizarre usage, I thought, given that "shredded" here means pretty much the opposite of its usual meaning.
Tom
March 15, 2012 at 11:29 am
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
... all started off by Paul's poisonous attitude, not a sudden decision on the grounds that inherited parishes and sees were a bad thing.Paul's anti-marriage poison (which was completely opposed to the views of the apostoles, and just one of many causes of his feuding with James and with Peter, both of whom - like others of the 11 - married) gave crazy people a handle to force extremist views on the churches...
I have to disagree with calling what Paul wrote as "poisonous". I would say to call Paul anti-marriage is pulling that particular passage out of context. In the entire passage which even goes back in to chapter 6 (remember chapters and verses weren't in the original writings) Paul is addressing sexual immorality and the sexual nature of mankind and he specifically says that if a man can't keep his hands off he should get married. He also later says God has made some people to be married and others not to be. And I think verses 17-24 really sum up Paul's main point. Be content with the state you are in. His other point about staying single is that it allows you to remain focused on the things of God and having a wife can distract you from that. Christ made a similar point Luke 14 where he says if you don't hate your family you can't be his disciple. In context He's saying that you have to prioritize following Him first and then do the other things.
Okay, that's my sermon for the month. I usually try to avoid these things because y'all are smarter than I am and can pick me apart.
Agree with disagreeing about calling it "poisonous", but don't quite agree with your wording Jack. Hate to say that a "wife can distract you", I see it more as the fact that when married, you have a responsibility (and privilege) to serve your partner, as Christ serves the church. If you don't have that responsibility, then you have more "free time" to focus on serving the church yourself.
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How best to post your question[/url]
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
March 15, 2012 at 11:32 am
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Well, "shredding a recordset" to me means rendering it unreadable and unrecoverable so I would presumably have lost that job too. Maybe you could enlighten us: what does it mean?
I came across "shredded document" (or something like that - I'll recognise it if I see it again, but won't use it) used as a term for a clustered index on the nodes of an xml document for the first time ever just yesterday; quite a bizarre usage, I thought, given that "shredded" here means pretty much the opposite of its usual meaning.
shredding xml = parsing it for the data contained within, yes? Throwing away the useless part (the xml...hmmm)
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
March 15, 2012 at 11:41 am
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Well, "shredding a recordset" to me means rendering it unreadable and unrecoverable so I would presumably have lost that job too. Maybe you could enlighten us: what does it mean?
I came across "shredded document" (or something like that - I'll recognise it if I see it again, but won't use it) used as a term for a clustered index on the nodes of an xml document for the first time ever just yesterday; quite a bizarre usage, I thought, given that "shredded" here means pretty much the opposite of its usual meaning.
The only time I've heard or used the term shredding, is with regards to XML, means converting the document into a resultset.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 15, 2012 at 11:42 am
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Well, "shredding a recordset" to me means rendering it unreadable and unrecoverable so I would presumably have lost that job too. Maybe you could enlighten us: what does it mean?
I came across "shredded document" (or something like that - I'll recognise it if I see it again, but won't use it) used as a term for a clustered index on the nodes of an xml document for the first time ever just yesterday; quite a bizarre usage, I thought, given that "shredded" here means pretty much the opposite of its usual meaning.
"Shred" in this context means to pull out the data itself. Often in reference to an XML dataset being turned into rows and columns in tables and sub-tables, but it can also mean any other process that takes a whole dataset and shreds it into scraps of data for use. I.e., pulling scalar data out of datasets.
I tried to find a citation for that definition, but gave up after a few minutes. Tons of places where the context makes it clear what the use is, but didn't find a simple formal definition. (Didn't put too much effort into it either, so it's entirely possible there's a good definition somewhere obvious, and I just didn't think to look there.)
Edit: The only reason I know this is because I read about it in the 90s, when XML was first being proposed.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 15, 2012 at 11:53 am
GSquared (3/15/2012)
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Well, "shredding a recordset" to me means rendering it unreadable and unrecoverable so I would presumably have lost that job too. Maybe you could enlighten us: what does it mean?
I came across "shredded document" (or something like that - I'll recognise it if I see it again, but won't use it) used as a term for a clustered index on the nodes of an xml document for the first time ever just yesterday; quite a bizarre usage, I thought, given that "shredded" here means pretty much the opposite of its usual meaning.
"Shred" in this context means to pull out the data itself. Often in reference to an XML dataset being turned into rows and columns in tables and sub-tables, but it can also mean any other process that takes a whole dataset and shreds it into scraps of data for use. I.e., pulling scalar data out of datasets.
I tried to find a citation for that definition, but gave up after a few minutes. Tons of places where the context makes it clear what the use is, but didn't find a simple formal definition. (Didn't put too much effort into it either, so it's entirely possible there's a good definition somewhere obvious, and I just didn't think to look there.)
Edit: The only reason I know this is because I read about it in the 90s, when XML was first being proposed.
I love how, for awhile there, every job req had XML on it. Then you'd go to the interview and they wouldn't mention it. When they would ask me if I had any questions I'd say "what do you plan to use XML for?" and they'd have no idea.
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March 15, 2012 at 12:03 pm
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
I have to disagree with calling what Paul wrote as "poisonous". I would say to call Paul anti-marriage is pulling that particular passage out of context. In the entire passage which even goes back in to chapter 6 (remember chapters and verses weren't in the original writings) Paul is addressing sexual immorality and the sexual nature of mankind and he specifically says that if a man can't keep his hands off he should get married. He also later says God has made some people to be married and others not to be. And I think verses 17-24 really sum up Paul's main point. Be content with the state you are in. His other point about staying single is that it allows you to remain focused on the things of God and having a wife can distract you from that. Christ made a similar point Luke 14 where he says if you don't hate your family you can't be his disciple. In context He's saying that you have to prioritize following Him first and then do the other things.Okay, that's my sermon for the month. I usually try to avoid these things because y'all are smarter than I am and can pick me apart.
Maybe you're right Jack. I've picked up some distinctly anti-Paul attitudes from my wife (she studied theology for three years at an Anglo-Catholic college, so she knows far more of this stuff than I do or ever will) which may be a bit OTT (but certainly he was a loggerheads with Peter and James over many issues, that's a matter of record). Perhaps he didn't mean that text in the way it was interpreted by celibatists for the next milennium and more - that wouldn't have been the first time some crackpots misinterpreted something, nor the last.
Tom
March 15, 2012 at 12:15 pm
GSquared (3/15/2012)
Considering the arguments about NFs that I've seen between people who have different opinions about what they mean, even though they agree completely on the memorized definitions, I wouldn't consider that a handicap on your part.
I have to agree strongly with that - can't let it pass without throwing in my support and agreement.
I've actually had someone insist that using Date or DateTime datatypes meant a violation of 1NF, because "they store multiple values - day, month, and year - in one column". That person actually changed his mind when I pointed out that dates in SQL Server are actually stored as a single atomic value of the number of days since a baseline date (usually 1/1/1900), and it's the presentation layer that translates that into more complex formats. Yes, presented with that, he actually changed his mind about 1NF. That was a very, very "learned" debate, with citations and quotations being fired like bullets from a 10-guage on full-auto.
You were lucky. I had that with floating point numbers - because the have a mantissa and an exponent. I tried pointing out that integers have a magnitude and a sign, so an integer column must violate 1NF too, but got nowhere, so then I tried pointing out that what was held was a single rational number and storage as mantissa and exponent was merely a storage issue and therefor outside the scope of relational theory, and got nowhere with that too - and the person continued to assert that floating point was a violation of 1NF for as long as I knew him.
So, no flaw on your part if you don't have it memorized. Even doing so doesn't necessarily lead to any sort of practical result.
If you can design decent schema but not parrot normal form definitions you're far more use than someone who can parrot the definitions but not design decent schema - and you probably have more clue what normal forms are about the the guy who parrots the definitions.
Tom
March 15, 2012 at 12:56 pm
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Along came a better job where they didn't care what I called things, they drilled me on how I built things, what I would do in Situation X or Y...
So perhaps the idea is to tailor the questions to the applicants' backgrounds. Ask me how I would do something and I will tell you. ask me how to use FunkyTermX and I might not know. I don't know CompSci 101 since I never had it.
But to not know what a primary key is and to be interviewing for any kind of database-intensive job ... ?? Scariest part is he maybe found a job as lead DBA !!!
I don't think I've lost jobs because of terminology, but there are always technical terms thrown out there that either I don't know or can't recall when on an interview. I couldn't remember Venn diagram one time and called it the circles that intersect.
I still can't give a great definition of the normal forms but I can tell a good design from a bad one and can usually tell you what NF a design is in, if any.:-P
My theory sucks because I'm self-taught as well. But I've always gotten the job done and had employers pleased with my work.
As a self-taught person, I ran into a fun issue. Writing the first chapter for this new book, I named Codd. For some reason I thought his name was John Codd. I had a reviewer go absolutely BALLISTIC that I didn't know he was named Edgar 'Ted' Codd and that any book I was writing must be completely worthless so he stopped reviewing it. Cause after all, what's more important, having a decent idea of how to index a table or knowing Codd's first name?
The best part was, none of the other reviewers caught it.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
March 15, 2012 at 1:17 pm
Grant Fritchey (3/15/2012)
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Along came a better job where they didn't care what I called things, they drilled me on how I built things, what I would do in Situation X or Y...
So perhaps the idea is to tailor the questions to the applicants' backgrounds. Ask me how I would do something and I will tell you. ask me how to use FunkyTermX and I might not know. I don't know CompSci 101 since I never had it.
But to not know what a primary key is and to be interviewing for any kind of database-intensive job ... ?? Scariest part is he maybe found a job as lead DBA !!!
I don't think I've lost jobs because of terminology, but there are always technical terms thrown out there that either I don't know or can't recall when on an interview. I couldn't remember Venn diagram one time and called it the circles that intersect.
I still can't give a great definition of the normal forms but I can tell a good design from a bad one and can usually tell you what NF a design is in, if any.:-P
My theory sucks because I'm self-taught as well. But I've always gotten the job done and had employers pleased with my work.
As a self-taught person, I ran into a fun issue. Writing the first chapter for this new book, I named Codd. For some reason I thought his name was John Codd. I had a reviewer go absolutely BALLISTIC that I didn't know he was named Edgar 'Ted' Codd and that any book I was writing must be completely worthless so he stopped reviewing it. Cause after all, what's more important, having a decent idea of how to index a table or knowing Codd's first name?
The best part was, none of the other reviewers caught it.
Just tell the person you were actually talking about E. Codd's younger evil twin, who had the same ideas and theories, but is using them for world conquest through a secrect society of elite DBAs.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
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