November 25, 2017 at 12:13 pm
Jeff Moden - Thursday, November 23, 2017 11:54 AMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:34 PMThom A - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:20 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:14 PMHugo Kornelis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:06 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 1:37 PMWas I taught wrong regarding normalization? I was taught that you normalize to a point, say 3NF, then de-normalize where appropriating knowing the trade-offs and possible issues that you would need to account for in the design.Correct. Well, except that you should normalize up to 5NF before you start denormalization.
Many people in the world appear to confuse "de-normalized" with "non-normalized"Well, I was using 3NF as an example. I would also think it would be dependent on the complexity of the data being modeled as well. Not sure I would go to 5NF for a simple database system. Thinking about it, I really think it depends on the data anomalies you encounter during the process. If I remember correct the order of normalization is 1NF, 2NF, 3NF, BCNF, 4NF, 5NF, 6NF. After 3NF I have a hard time remembering what data anomalies you are overcoming. I would actually have to look those up.
What brought on the sudden self doubt Lynn?
Just some former MVP espousing normalization and his never wills in the same breath.
Heh... since I'm no longer an MVP, I hope like hell that you're not talking about me! 😉
Not you, Jeff.
November 27, 2017 at 5:22 am
Lynn Pettis - Saturday, November 25, 2017 12:13 PMJeff Moden - Thursday, November 23, 2017 11:54 AMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:34 PMThom A - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:20 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:14 PMHugo Kornelis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:06 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 1:37 PMWas I taught wrong regarding normalization? I was taught that you normalize to a point, say 3NF, then de-normalize where appropriating knowing the trade-offs and possible issues that you would need to account for in the design.Correct. Well, except that you should normalize up to 5NF before you start denormalization.
Many people in the world appear to confuse "de-normalized" with "non-normalized"Well, I was using 3NF as an example. I would also think it would be dependent on the complexity of the data being modeled as well. Not sure I would go to 5NF for a simple database system. Thinking about it, I really think it depends on the data anomalies you encounter during the process. If I remember correct the order of normalization is 1NF, 2NF, 3NF, BCNF, 4NF, 5NF, 6NF. After 3NF I have a hard time remembering what data anomalies you are overcoming. I would actually have to look those up.
What brought on the sudden self doubt Lynn?
Just some former MVP espousing normalization and his never wills in the same breath.
Heh... since I'm no longer an MVP, I hope like hell that you're not talking about me! 😉
Not you, Jeff.
Lynn, I've seen the former MVP you're referring to post some real dribble and flat-out garbage. Don't let him or JC rattle you.
November 27, 2017 at 6:21 am
Ed Wagner - Monday, November 27, 2017 5:22 AMLynn Pettis - Saturday, November 25, 2017 12:13 PMJeff Moden - Thursday, November 23, 2017 11:54 AMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:34 PMThom A - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:20 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:14 PMHugo Kornelis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:06 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 1:37 PMWas I taught wrong regarding normalization? I was taught that you normalize to a point, say 3NF, then de-normalize where appropriating knowing the trade-offs and possible issues that you would need to account for in the design.Correct. Well, except that you should normalize up to 5NF before you start denormalization.
Many people in the world appear to confuse "de-normalized" with "non-normalized"Well, I was using 3NF as an example. I would also think it would be dependent on the complexity of the data being modeled as well. Not sure I would go to 5NF for a simple database system. Thinking about it, I really think it depends on the data anomalies you encounter during the process. If I remember correct the order of normalization is 1NF, 2NF, 3NF, BCNF, 4NF, 5NF, 6NF. After 3NF I have a hard time remembering what data anomalies you are overcoming. I would actually have to look those up.
What brought on the sudden self doubt Lynn?
Just some former MVP espousing normalization and his never wills in the same breath.
Heh... since I'm no longer an MVP, I hope like hell that you're not talking about me! 😉
Not you, Jeff.
Lynn, I've seen the former MVP you're referring to post some real dribble and flat-out garbage. Don't let him or JC rattle you.
I might be going a bit soft here but one man's garbage is another man's gold. JC is just nasty so no excuse there but we do learn from differing opinions and experiences even if we don't agree with them.
--Jeff Moden
November 27, 2017 at 6:32 am
Jeff Moden - Monday, November 27, 2017 6:21 AMEd Wagner - Monday, November 27, 2017 5:22 AMLynn Pettis - Saturday, November 25, 2017 12:13 PMJeff Moden - Thursday, November 23, 2017 11:54 AMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:34 PMThom A - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:20 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:14 PMHugo Kornelis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 3:06 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 22, 2017 1:37 PMWas I taught wrong regarding normalization? I was taught that you normalize to a point, say 3NF, then de-normalize where appropriating knowing the trade-offs and possible issues that you would need to account for in the design.Correct. Well, except that you should normalize up to 5NF before you start denormalization.
Many people in the world appear to confuse "de-normalized" with "non-normalized"Well, I was using 3NF as an example. I would also think it would be dependent on the complexity of the data being modeled as well. Not sure I would go to 5NF for a simple database system. Thinking about it, I really think it depends on the data anomalies you encounter during the process. If I remember correct the order of normalization is 1NF, 2NF, 3NF, BCNF, 4NF, 5NF, 6NF. After 3NF I have a hard time remembering what data anomalies you are overcoming. I would actually have to look those up.
What brought on the sudden self doubt Lynn?
Just some former MVP espousing normalization and his never wills in the same breath.
Heh... since I'm no longer an MVP, I hope like hell that you're not talking about me! 😉
Not you, Jeff.
Lynn, I've seen the former MVP you're referring to post some real dribble and flat-out garbage. Don't let him or JC rattle you.
I might be going a bit soft here but one man's garbage is another man's gold. JC is just nasty so no excuse there but we do learn from differing opinions and experiences even if we don't agree with them.
Absolutely agree on your main point, but I don't think you're going soft. I believe that nothing is completely useless, even if its only purpose is a perfect example of what not to do. 😛
November 27, 2017 at 7:21 am
It actually worries me that someone out there was under the impression that converting an integer (or a string containing an integer numeric) to a decimal, reduces the value of said integer (by a factor of 10 to the power of the accuracy)... https://qa.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/1909665/decimal-places-correction
/headdesk
Thom~
Excuse my typos and sometimes awful grammar. My fingers work faster than my brain does.
Larnu.uk
November 27, 2017 at 1:13 pm
Thom A - Monday, November 27, 2017 7:21 AMIt actually worries me that someone out there was under the impression that converting an integer (or a string containing an integer numeric) to a decimal, reduces the value of said integer (by a factor of 10 to the power of the accuracy)... https://qa.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/1909665/decimal-places-correction/headdesk
I think it's specifically for MONEY fields. It's far too common to remove the decimals from money fields. It probably dates back to when they used punch cards and had very little space on the cards.
John
J. Drew Allen
Business Intelligence Analyst
Philadelphia, PA
November 27, 2017 at 1:18 pm
drew.allen - Monday, November 27, 2017 1:13 PMThom A - Monday, November 27, 2017 7:21 AMIt actually worries me that someone out there was under the impression that converting an integer (or a string containing an integer numeric) to a decimal, reduces the value of said integer (by a factor of 10 to the power of the accuracy)... https://qa.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/1909665/decimal-places-correction/headdesk
I think it's specifically for MONEY fields. It's far too common to remove the decimals from money fields. It probably dates back to when they used punch cards and had very little space on the cards.
John
Or to use Mr. Celko's example from COBOL when there were implied decimal positions (9999v99), the data 100000 was actually 1000.00.
November 27, 2017 at 1:34 pm
drew.allen - Monday, November 27, 2017 1:13 PMThom A - Monday, November 27, 2017 7:21 AMIt actually worries me that someone out there was under the impression that converting an integer (or a string containing an integer numeric) to a decimal, reduces the value of said integer (by a factor of 10 to the power of the accuracy)... https://qa.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/1909665/decimal-places-correction/headdesk
I think it's specifically for MONEY fields. It's far too common to remove the decimals from money fields. It probably dates back to when they used punch cards and had very little space on the cards.
John
Not all currencies use cents for example Chase's payment API will take just a straight integer and a currency code to determine what to do with it.
November 27, 2017 at 2:57 pm
ZZartin - Monday, November 27, 2017 1:34 PMdrew.allen - Monday, November 27, 2017 1:13 PMThom A - Monday, November 27, 2017 7:21 AMIt actually worries me that someone out there was under the impression that converting an integer (or a string containing an integer numeric) to a decimal, reduces the value of said integer (by a factor of 10 to the power of the accuracy)... https://qa.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/1909665/decimal-places-correction/headdesk
I think it's specifically for MONEY fields. It's far too common to remove the decimals from money fields. It probably dates back to when they used punch cards and had very little space on the cards.
John
Not all currencies use cents for example Chase's payment API will take just a straight integer and a currency code to determine what to do with it.
No one said that they did. I said that it was "too common" not "ubiquitous" or even "pervasive".
Drew (or John)
PS: They know me as John at work, so I sometimes lapse into that.
J. Drew Allen
Business Intelligence Analyst
Philadelphia, PA
November 27, 2017 at 3:26 pm
drew.allen - Monday, November 27, 2017 2:57 PMZZartin - Monday, November 27, 2017 1:34 PMdrew.allen - Monday, November 27, 2017 1:13 PMThom A - Monday, November 27, 2017 7:21 AMIt actually worries me that someone out there was under the impression that converting an integer (or a string containing an integer numeric) to a decimal, reduces the value of said integer (by a factor of 10 to the power of the accuracy)... https://qa.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/1909665/decimal-places-correction/headdesk
I think it's specifically for MONEY fields. It's far too common to remove the decimals from money fields. It probably dates back to when they used punch cards and had very little space on the cards.
John
Not all currencies use cents for example Chase's payment API will take just a straight integer and a currency code to determine what to do with it.
No one said that they did. I said that it was "too common" not "ubiquitous" or even "pervasive".
Drew (or John)
PS: They know me as John at work, so I sometimes lapse into that.
I was just pointing out that there are reasons besides that's how they used to do it in punch cards to not use decimals in currencies.
November 27, 2017 at 8:03 pm
Ed Wagner - Monday, November 27, 2017 6:32 AMJeff Moden - Monday, November 27, 2017 6:21 AMI might be going a bit soft here but one man's garbage is another man's gold. JC is just nasty so no excuse there but we do learn from differing opinions and experiences even if we don't agree with them.Absolutely agree on your main point, but I don't think you're going soft. I believe that nothing is completely useless, even if its only purpose is a perfect example of what not to do. 😛
Heh... yeah.. going through that on the "birthday month" post right now. A bit unbelievable.
--Jeff Moden
November 28, 2017 at 12:47 pm
Anyone know what RStudio and Domino are? I could use a little assistance.
November 30, 2017 at 11:11 am
What would it take to get MS to create a role so that people could view the SQL logs without having to either put them in the securityadmin role, or use undocumented stored procedures?
Is there a Connect item for this already I can upvote?
I'm trying to grant the minimum privileges to myself (long story, I have two accounts, my privileged and non-privileged. Because of a change in security settings on my desktop, I can no longer launch SSMS with my privileged account, so I'm looking for a way to at least be able to quickly monitor / check the servers without being a full SA, then I connect to a Terminal Server with my privileged account when needed) so I can check for long-running queries (got that sorted out,) check Agent job history (easy,) and review the SQL Logs (now, we have a problem.)
I could add my normal account to the securityadmin role, but then I'd have access to things I should only be doing with my privileged account (add / remove logins, change passwords...)
Yeah, I'm grumbling...
November 30, 2017 at 11:23 am
jasona.work - Thursday, November 30, 2017 11:11 AM...Yeah, I'm grumbling...
Grumbling with a point.
November 30, 2017 at 11:27 am
jasona.work - Thursday, November 30, 2017 11:11 AMWhat would it take to get MS to create a role so that people could view the SQL logs without having to either put them in the securityadmin role, or use undocumented stored procedures?
Is there a Connect item for this already I can upvote?I'm trying to grant the minimum privileges to myself (long story, I have two accounts, my privileged and non-privileged. Because of a change in security settings on my desktop, I can no longer launch SSMS with my privileged account, so I'm looking for a way to at least be able to quickly monitor / check the servers without being a full SA, then I connect to a Terminal Server with my privileged account when needed) so I can check for long-running queries (got that sorted out,) check Agent job history (easy,) and review the SQL Logs (now, we have a problem.)
I could add my normal account to the securityadmin role, but then I'd have access to things I should only be doing with my privileged account (add / remove logins, change passwords...)
Yeah, I'm grumbling...
A reason to improve security that is important enough to move resources off of some new sales feature. I think there are a number of these separation of duties items that I'm hoping GDPR will put pressure on them to implement. I haven't looked here, but is there not a custom server role that can be created here?
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