December 2, 2008 at 1:12 pm
jeffkretz (12/2/2008)
Does anyone have any opionions about this practice? Good idea? Bad idea?
JK
I think a lot of people do that or do a full technical interview before the HR interview..
The company I used to work for required a technical test (3 hours) before the interview. It wasn't particularly difficult, but we got some very amusing answers from time to time
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 2, 2008 at 1:25 pm
My knowledge increased ten fold after participating in the forums. It is a great way to see how other people accomplish the same thing. Also, if you post some code that is not quite up to par you will have someone come behind you with a better solution; you just have to be open minded and take it as a learning experiance and not an insult.
As far as learning materials, I do a lot of reading, but when I am answering questions I use the F1 key a lot to bring up books online.
Another thing I have been doing recently is picking a topic and working on a presentation. It forces me to learn a topic inside and out.
December 2, 2008 at 1:57 pm
My dear friend Jeff Kretz,
yes, learning is very important but if I was in your place and make so much money as you, I would not get critical on myself but instead get myself a big present! 🙂
I have same question but how to go from beginner to intermediate! Oksana
jeffkretz (11/30/2008)
I realized recently that I've become complacent as regards to training on my job as a DBA for a medium-sized company.It also doesn't help that I'm 100% self-taught, and even though I've been doing this for the last 8 years, I KNOW I must have some bad habits that could be eradicated by proper training.
I'm looking for advice on a path to take. My inclination is to get texts on the subject and read them, as opposed to taking a class or obtaining certification. I'm primarily interested in improving my ability to architect and design large applications, along with performance efficiency and tuning.
Moving from an intermediate level to an advanced level, has anyone found the class or certification approach to be more effective than reading texts solo?
Out of the plethora of SQL texts on the market, are there any specific ones that should be recommended over others?
Thanks for your time,
JK
December 2, 2008 at 2:04 pm
jeffkretz (12/2/2008)
Gaby Abed (12/2/2008)[hr
Agreed...I'm working on my MCTS for SQL 2005 but I plan to emphasize my experience first on the resumes and keep the certification at the end, probably as part of the education/certification section in the resume. It will be one of many hooks the HR people can search for but in the end, experience will count the most (if the interviewer is doing it right).
Actually, that brings up another question that's been bugging me. (Sorry to hijack this thread a bit) I'm a skilled DBA but NOT a trained hiring manager. Yet the HR department cannot interview potential cadidates for technical capability -- so that falls to me.
I find myself in a position of having to review resumes of applicants and interview candidates myself. I've done this many times over the past few years, but I'm always worried that I may overlook someone who could do an excellent job. And many of the people who wind up in the interview room seemed great on paper but interviewed poorly.
Of late I've started a culling step whereby I took a particularly complex SQL query I wrote, remove all comments and documentation and sent it to all applicants and asked them to re-document the query, explain what it does and give their opinion of its efficiency.
So far, the only effect this has had is to reduce the number of interviews, because only 1 in 40 (by actual count) will even answer the request.
Does anyone have any opionions about this practice? Good idea? Bad idea?
JK
I wouldn't and haven't done that... I'd just as soon have the 40 interviews. I've met a lot of people who absolutely choke on a test of that nature, especially a "particularly complex SQL query", but put them in front of a machine in real life, and they're bloody wizards doing the seemingly impossible.
Tests also don't reveal attitude... IT is impersonal enough... do the interviews after you've read the resumes... look for people that list accomplishments in real terms instead of a pedigree. Don't be afraid to ask "ice breaker" questions on the interview. I had several folks say they were Ninja's in SQL Server and one even claimed to be a "9 out of 10" right on his resume... but he couldn't tell me the name of the function that would return the current date and time. And, no, I'm not making that up. Also had a PHD in Mathematics that couldn't convert 1416 to base 10. And, ALWAYS ask the RBAR/Cursor question...
--Jeff Moden
December 2, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Oksana March (12/2/2008)
I have same question but how to go from beginner to intermediate! Oksana
Study for the SQL certifications.
Note, I did not say write and pass them. I said study for them. By covering all the material that's required and making sure that you understand it well, you should, once you're done, have a good understanding of the fundamentals.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 2, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Jeff Moden (12/2/2008)
I had several folks say they were Ninja's in SQL Server and one even claimed to be a "9 out of 10" right on his resume... but he couldn't tell me the name of the function that would return the current date and time. And, no, I'm not making that up.
I've had a Senior SQL DBA who claimed 5/5 on SQL 2000, SQL 2005 and Oracle 9 (with a total of 3 years of experience). He couldn't name two types of SQL backups.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 2, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Jeff Moden (12/2/2008)
jeffkretz (12/2/2008)
Gaby Abed (12/2/2008)[hr
Agreed...I'm working on my MCTS for SQL 2005 but I plan to emphasize my experience first on the resumes and keep the certification at the end, probably as part of the education/certification section in the resume. It will be one of many hooks the HR people can search for but in the end, experience will count the most (if the interviewer is doing it right).
Actually, that brings up another question that's been bugging me. (Sorry to hijack this thread a bit) I'm a skilled DBA but NOT a trained hiring manager. Yet the HR department cannot interview potential cadidates for technical capability -- so that falls to me.
I find myself in a position of having to review resumes of applicants and interview candidates myself. I've done this many times over the past few years, but I'm always worried that I may overlook someone who could do an excellent job. And many of the people who wind up in the interview room seemed great on paper but interviewed poorly.
Of late I've started a culling step whereby I took a particularly complex SQL query I wrote, remove all comments and documentation and sent it to all applicants and asked them to re-document the query, explain what it does and give their opinion of its efficiency.
So far, the only effect this has had is to reduce the number of interviews, because only 1 in 40 (by actual count) will even answer the request.
Does anyone have any opionions about this practice? Good idea? Bad idea?
JK
I wouldn't and haven't done that... I'd just as soon have the 40 interviews. I've met a lot of people who absolutely choke on a test of that nature, especially a "particularly complex SQL query", but put them in front of a machine in real life, and they're bloody wizards doing the seemingly impossible.
Tests also don't reveal attitude... IT is impersonal enough... do the interviews after you've read the resumes... look for people that list accomplishments in real terms instead of a pedigree. Don't be afraid to ask "ice breaker" questions on the interview. I had several folks say they were Ninja's in SQL Server and one even claimed to be a "9 out of 10" right on his resume... but he couldn't tell me the name of the function that would return the current date and time. And, no, I'm not making that up. Also had a PHD in Mathematics that couldn't convert 1416 to base 10. And, ALWAYS ask the RBAR/Cursor question...
20
December 2, 2008 at 2:34 pm
GilaMonster (12/2/2008)
Jeff Moden (12/2/2008)
I had several folks say they were Ninja's in SQL Server and one even claimed to be a "9 out of 10" right on his resume... but he couldn't tell me the name of the function that would return the current date and time. And, no, I'm not making that up.I've had a Senior SQL DBA who claimed 5/5 on SQL 2000, SQL 2005 and Oracle 9 (with a total of 3 years of experience). He couldn't name two types of SQL backups.
Really? I'm curious what his answer was, or was it a simple "I don't know"? And were you able to keep a straight face?
Gaby
________________________________________________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
- Albert Einstein
December 2, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Oksana March (12/2/2008)
My dear friend Jeff Kretz,yes, learning is very important but if I was in your place and make so much money as you, I would not get critical on myself but instead get myself a big present! 🙂
I have same question but how to go from beginner to intermediate! Oksana
Heh. Thanks for your words. I guess its not so much a matter of being critical of myself, as it is recognizing that while I'm at a good place, I could be a lot better. The recommended books as well as advice to participate in these forums is pretty spot-on, IMO.
Jeff Moden (12/2/2008)[hrI wouldn't and haven't done that... I'd just as soon have the 40 interviews. I've met a lot of people who absolutely choke on a test of that nature, especially a "particularly complex SQL query", but put them in front of a machine in real life, and they're bloody wizards doing the seemingly impossible.
Tests also don't reveal attitude... IT is impersonal enough... do the interviews after you've read the resumes... look for people that list accomplishments in real terms instead of a pedigree. Don't be afraid to ask "ice breaker" questions on the interview. I had several folks say they were Ninja's in SQL Server and one even claimed to be a "9 out of 10" right on his resume... but he couldn't tell me the name of the function that would return the current date and time. And, no, I'm not making that up. Also had a PHD in Mathematics that couldn't convert 1416 to base 10. And, ALWAYS ask the RBAR/Cursor question...
I can see that. It was a response to "interview burnout" -- I was starting get a bit cynical about the interview process, and I can imagine it would be pretty unhelpful for a candidate to sit across from an annoyed interviewer :-O
Thanks for your advice.
JK
December 2, 2008 at 2:56 pm
jeffkretz (12/2/2008)
Jeff Moden (12/2/2008)[hrI wouldn't and haven't done that... I'd just as soon have the 40 interviews. I've met a lot of people who absolutely choke on a test of that nature, especially a "particularly complex SQL query", but put them in front of a machine in real life, and they're bloody wizards doing the seemingly impossible.
Tests also don't reveal attitude... IT is impersonal enough... do the interviews after you've read the resumes... look for people that list accomplishments in real terms instead of a pedigree. Don't be afraid to ask "ice breaker" questions on the interview. I had several folks say they were Ninja's in SQL Server and one even claimed to be a "9 out of 10" right on his resume... but he couldn't tell me the name of the function that would return the current date and time. And, no, I'm not making that up. Also had a PHD in Mathematics that couldn't convert 1416 to base 10. And, ALWAYS ask the RBAR/Cursor question...[/quote-0]
I can see that. It was a response to "interview burnout" -- I was starting get a bit cynical about the interview process, and I can imagine it would be pretty unhelpful for a candidate to sit across from an annoyed interviewer :-O
Thanks for your advice.
JK
Perhaps you could pre-screen over the phone first. It might not take as much time in the long run and the face-to-face interviews might be limited to the better candidates.
December 2, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Gaby Abed (12/2/2008)
Really? I'm curious what his answer was, or was it a simple "I don't know"?
He told us (panel interview, myself, two other DBAs and a lady from HR) there's the database backup. He then paused, ummm, errr... ummm, he thought a bit. My colleague asked another question (on locking detection) partially to end the silence. He flailed around a bit on that, mentioned things completely unrelated. We asked a couple more things, more to pad the interview than anything and then politely ended it.
And were you able to keep a straight face?
I was more astonished than anything else. I was pretty sure the CV was exaggerated (at least the skills matrix), but not that bad.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 2, 2008 at 4:12 pm
One interesting thing Andy and I talked about years ago when he had similar issues is that people can be successful in their job, and show years of experience managing a SQL Server, but not be competent. It seems this often is that they haven't encountered crisis situations or been asked to do much. I think that's entirely plausible given how robust SQL can be.
It doesn't make them good candidates, however. If they haven't been self starters, haven't been working to learn more on their own, chances are I don't want them working for me, at least not as anything above a junior.
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December 3, 2008 at 7:01 am
The certification route is really only effective to learn the basics of what is possible, I now know this as I am well on my way to finishing the MCITP in Database Admin for SQL 2005.
I have worked with most MS SQL versions over the last 10 years in various roles but have only been a DBA for 7 months.
Experience is everything as I may know quite a bit about SQL but have a long long way to go, and you can't always learn that from a book.
Practice makes perfect.
December 3, 2008 at 7:11 am
Russell.Taylor (12/3/2008)
The certification route is really only effective to learn the basics of what is possible, I now know this as I am well on my way to finishing the MCITP in Database Admin for SQL 2005.I have worked with most MS SQL versions over the last 10 years in various roles but have only been a DBA for 7 months.
Experience is everything as I may know quite a bit about SQL but have a long long way to go, and you can't always learn that from a book.
Practice makes perfect.
Agreed...if it wasn't for the fact I'm a relative newbie to the world of SQL Server, I would probably not bother with certification. However, as I'm starting out, perhaps a bit later in the game than I would have liked, certification will definitely be a tool, one of many, but I'll definitely focus on the experience I'm gaining when selling myself to any potential future employer.
Gaby
________________________________________________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
- Albert Einstein
December 3, 2008 at 3:59 pm
I solved a post, last night, using the SIGN function instead of CASE for a pretty good performance gain. It reminded me of what my original programming mentor taught me and it's really good advice for anyone who wants to become a Ninja at any programming language... before you try to write your first lick of code, sit down with the book and study the instrinsic functions. You don't necessarily have to memorize their precise syntax, but memorize what they do at a 5,000 foot level (a bit deeper than a really casual overview)... you'll be amazed at the problems you can solve just by doing that.
--Jeff Moden
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