June 20, 2012 at 9:04 am
An effective interview process should weed out bad candidates. But the best interview processes have known to fail, there are things about the person that simply do not come out except when he is at work and things people can hide pretty effectively. The best techies also prove to be bad fits for other reasons. I think not judging certs as an indicator of anything is pretty much the same. Sometimes it can and does indicate person is interested in self improvement, sometimes is isn't. That is all. In general it is not anything to go to war about, and there can be no 'one thing' that is a complete green signal that a person is the greatest for the job, including being an MVP or even an MCM. That does not make them all worthless.
June 20, 2012 at 8:06 pm
jbnv (6/20/2012)[hrIn the real world, no two people have completely identical knowledge and aptitude (which is what this whole debate boils down to, IMO). Even identical twins at some point have different experiences. At some point in the interview process, you're going to find a difference.
It WAS just an example to exemplify that certs, degrees, and other forms of alphabet soup don't mean a thing to me during the interview process. I also did say that I'd continue the interview process until I found a difference between the two.
As a side bar, if I ever did run into two such fine specimens (certified or not) during the same hiring cycle and couldn't break the tie in knowledge or attitude, I'd hire the one that lived the closest and write a letter of recommendation for the other as well as giving him or her a list of all the recruiters that I trusted to take care of such a rare find. Even if I could break the tie, if it actually came down to two people that I needed to find a tie breaker for, I'd write the same letter of recommendation for the person who came in second because actually finding good DBAs or SQL Developers that actually know their trade is a really tough thing to do, certified or not, and I'd want to help them find the job they deserve.
--Jeff Moden
June 21, 2012 at 6:59 am
Wow, you seem a really cool person to interview for!! I have not known or heard too many people who can write recommendations etc for candidates they were unable to pick for whatever reason. Also as an opposite perspective - 'continuing to interview' can be a very frustrating experience for a candidate. I would give 3 interviews at best, maximum 4, that includes interviews with HR/upper management, everyone - try to maintain same standard for people I interview. If i keep getting called multiple times it is rather obvious person is unsure of his/her decision and that does not come across too well.
June 21, 2012 at 7:48 am
I don't think Jeff meant that he would keep calling people back for more interviews, but that he would extend the current interview to learn more about the prospective candidate.
June 22, 2012 at 9:20 am
Here's another perspective on certs:
In 1997 I was departing the world of humanities education, with a Master's in ancient Greek and Latin. I had no idea what to do next. I ended up getting a job with New Horizons because of my training ability, despite the fact that I knew zilch about technology. I used the MCSE certification as a curriculum to start from scratch to teach myself the IT field. I was able to earn MCSE and with that I broke into IT at a point where I had nothing to offer. It both opened a door and also gave me a direction for learning. My ability to handle Access was quickly apparent as well and so within a week of being employed by them I was already being considered "the database guy". At a subsequent job (New Horizons only lasted a few months because it is a terrible place to work, and I got a better position), that background got me put onto my first SQL Server position. I dug into the MCDBA from there and earned that. When I lost that position due to the .com bust in 2001, the cert opened the door to my first true DBA position. I have never looked back.
I understand all of the earlier arguments and see all sides. But for me, certs were my ticket into IT and I could not have done it without them.
June 22, 2012 at 9:36 am
I have nothing against certifications, I'd like to get certified myself. My problem with them is more with those who have them and have demonstrated to me that the don't have the knowledge the certification purports them to have and they behave in such a manner that I should believe they do because they have the certification. Does that make sense?
June 22, 2012 at 9:40 am
Lynn, it makes sense to me. there are two things to it - if you 'study' for certs it is same as 'studying' for anything else in a way - i dont remember anything i learnt for my college degree, i wont' remember this either. Second, people who use brain dumps and bootcamps and the like .Quick learn=quick forget and no practical experience. If you can find something of value to it outside of these things do it that is all, i would say. I find it the best tool there is to get a decent product overview, i don't expect myself or others to be experts at anything because of it.
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