March 26, 2010 at 10:12 am
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
He never was President, so not missing.
Let me explain the opportunity cost of Ben Franklin not one of the early presidents.
Sorry, but we are discussing a missing certification level here. If you have something to add to this discussion, more than willing to listen.
Novell certification many (and I mean many) years ago required employer certification of experience. Not sure how that was handled, but sounds like a good start.
Could also have another MCJ or MCM also certify if you have been working with one.
March 26, 2010 at 10:13 am
WayneS (3/26/2010)
One year isn't enough; three years is probably too much. Two sounds like a good middle to me.
Now, how would one go about getting documented experience? I think figuring this out will be the biggest hurdle...
Look into how the PMP certification handles their hours of experience requirement for Project Managers; that's a substantially similar requirement to what we're talking about, already incorporated into a well regarded certification.
March 26, 2010 at 10:15 am
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
He never was President, so not missing.
Let me explain the opportunity cost of Ben Franklin not one of the early presidents.
Sorry, but we are discussing a missing certification level here. If you have something to add to this discussion, more than willing to listen.
That is what I was discussing before I was told to leave a bad system as is because education is not a right. I don't see a missing certification just to clean up the system like stop converting Microsoft and partners employees to development architects when the object experts showed you what is wrong with your current solution Framework.
There are a lot of technical experts even in this site who will not pass the MCM because of their differences with Microsoft implementation.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 26, 2010 at 10:16 am
I would think as long as you can define the experience you're looking for, you could require employer certification of that checklist.
What happens if you're in a position that doesn't allow for on-the-job experience in one or more of the items? Do you have to volunteer somewhere to get it? Or would you be able to have someone take a look at your home-grown setup and certify that you are approximating what work experience would give you?
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
March 26, 2010 at 10:17 am
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
He never was President, so not missing.
Let me explain the opportunity cost of Ben Franklin not one of the early presidents.
Sorry, but we are discussing a missing certification level here. If you have something to add to this discussion, more than willing to listen.
That is what I was discussing before I was told to leave a bad system as is because education is not a right. I don't see a missing certification just to clean up the system like stop converting Microsoft and partners employees to development architects when the object experts showed you what is wrong with your current solution Framework.
There are a lot of technical experts even in this site who will not pass the MCM because of their differences with Microsoft implementation.
Not adding to our discussion. Come on, get on topic here.
March 26, 2010 at 10:20 am
The PMP model seems a great one to emulate. Document specific projects and mandate requirements for projects and companies to be part of a technical certification plan - that perhaps goes hand in hand with roadmap for technical upgrades that they have going now. To me even certifying a company as something is good enough and if you come from there you can be expected to have certain skills. Just like coming from a company that follows PMP standards means something.
March 26, 2010 at 10:20 am
I don't think employer certification should be considered. Some employers have no idea of what you do for them.
If the pre-reqs are MCITP, and then a Journeyman or Master signs off - then you can be a Journeyman.
I might go with the PMP model - but I would have to see how they fully handle it.
But I definitely believe there needs to be a sign-off of some sort.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 26, 2010 at 10:22 am
jcrawf02 (3/26/2010)
I would think as long as you can define the experience you're looking for, you could require employer certification of that checklist.What happens if you're in a position that doesn't allow for on-the-job experience in one or more of the items? Do you have to volunteer somewhere to get it? Or would you be able to have someone take a look at your home-grown setup and certify that you are approximating what work experience would give you?
Understand, here is what I think. MCJ: Database Administrator -- you need to be able to document at least 2 years experience as a DBA, not necessarily in all areas. For instance, I have worked with SQL Server starting with 6.5 up through 2008, but I have no on the job experience with clustering or log shipping, and have only just now started working with database mirroring.
The testing would need to cover these areas, and if you passed the clustering and log shipping modules in the testing, that should be good. this testing should be done in a lab environment, not just a simulation approximating such an environment.
March 26, 2010 at 10:22 am
Some employers have no idea of what you do for them.<< Yes, exactly. It is unlikely such people are into PMP type of stuff either. In my experience with PMP it does force some accoutability even to indifferent employers and i think an employer certification in addition to individual certification would definitely carry benefit.
March 26, 2010 at 10:26 am
dma-669038 (3/26/2010)
Some employers have no idea of what you do for them.<< Yes, exactly. It is unlikely such people are into PMP type of stuff either. In my experience with PMP it does force some accoutability even to indifferent employers and i think an employer certification in addition to individual certification would definitely carry benefit.
I'll buy that. If the employer is certified, and is accountable to some regard - that could be a very worthwhile method.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 26, 2010 at 10:26 am
The PMP model seems a great one to emulate. Document specific projects and mandate requirements for projects and companies to be part of a technical certification plan - that perhaps goes hand in hand with roadmap for technical upgrades that they have going now. To me even certifying a company as something is good enough and if you come from there you can be expected to have certain skills. Just like coming from a company that follows PMP standards means something.
PMP is a management certification MCM is an implementation certification both are not related. The implementation managers in Microsoft are program managers. I also lived in Indy most of those requirements are just there to impress some of the reasons software engineering companies put PMP in hr.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 26, 2010 at 10:27 am
What happens if you're in a position that doesn't allow for on-the-job experience in one or more of the items? Do you have to volunteer somewhere to get it? Or would you be able to have someone take a look at your home-grown setup and certify that you are approximating what work experience would give you?<<
The limitation of being in the technical field itself is that technical knowledge is difficult to muster without real world practical experience. That is perhaps why people who do not have it resort to brain dump type of strategies to pass tests also. Real world technical experience has no subsitute whatsoever and one has to work one's way up the ladder into a good company in order to get it. I am not sure how volunteering would work in this regard. A home grown setup is fine for playing around with technology and understanding features but cannot possibly provide depth and variety of experience in the real world.
March 26, 2010 at 10:29 am
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
jcrawf02 (3/26/2010)
I would think as long as you can define the experience you're looking for, you could require employer certification of that checklist.What happens if you're in a position that doesn't allow for on-the-job experience in one or more of the items? Do you have to volunteer somewhere to get it? Or would you be able to have someone take a look at your home-grown setup and certify that you are approximating what work experience would give you?
Understand, here is what I think. MCJ: Database Administrator -- you need to be able to document at least 2 years experience as a DBA, not necessarily in all areas. For instance, I have worked with SQL Server starting with 6.5 up through 2008, but I have no on the job experience with clustering or log shipping, and have only just now started working with database mirroring.
The testing would need to cover these areas, and if you passed the clustering and log shipping modules in the testing, that should be good. this testing should be done in a lab environment, not just a simulation approximating such an environment.
Fill in the gaps?
I agree with that. There needs to be a legitimate method to test for the gaps. A CBT on the stuff you proclaim to know could suffice. If you don't know it, then a lab? Or would it all be lab? Or vise-a-versa?
I think the lab should be limited in depth. The MCM requires a full lab exam upon completion. Doing a full lab exam might get redundant - but might be necessary.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 26, 2010 at 10:30 am
Gift, i never said PMP is 'related' to MCM, only it is among certifications that carry credibility. Again we can branch off into another thread if it really does or if it does in Texas versus Washington and so on.
PMP requires documenting projects you have done with managerial approval, yes you can fool your way through it to some extent but it is tough, i know people who have tried and it helps the person learning standard ways of doing projects even if it does nto help the company.
March 26, 2010 at 10:33 am
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
The PMP model seems a great one to emulate. Document specific projects and mandate requirements for projects and companies to be part of a technical certification plan - that perhaps goes hand in hand with roadmap for technical upgrades that they have going now. To me even certifying a company as something is good enough and if you come from there you can be expected to have certain skills. Just like coming from a company that follows PMP standards means something.
PMP is a management certification MCM is an implementation certification both are not related. The implementation managers in Microsoft are program managers. I also lived in Indy most of those requirements are just there to impress some of the reasons software engineering companies put PMP in hr.
And this applies how? Not sure what you are saying here.
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