January 25, 2008 at 8:10 am
If I received the check, I would instantly report it. It's not mine to keep as I never earned it. Similarly, I would report the person receiving it if he/she gave that information out. We are all loosers when people take financial advantage of errors and mistakes.
January 25, 2008 at 8:10 am
very interesting when you sit and think about it.
As we just wrapped up our yearly performance appraisals.
If you have never been told you are not meeting your job expectations and they cannot provide your 'i quit' notification then i guess you truly could say you were working for hte last 5 years and they never told you to shape up or ship out...
I guess to the letter the cash is yours. Now morally you maybe could return it but hey.... take it out of the pay of the hr flubs.
Of course like most i would love to say i would return it... but lets be honest and frank... until it happens to you... you have know way to know what the greed will do. We are all honest and want to do the right thing... but human nature in inherently greedy and searching for the golden ticket. Thanks Charlie.
January 25, 2008 at 8:22 am
If it happened to me, I'd report it immediately to the company, and contact my bank to have them stop accepting the money. Prevents lots of problems later.
If it happened to a friend of mine, first I'd ask them to take care of it, and then I'd report it - because that's what friends are for! This guy would be in a lot less trouble if a friend had helped stop his behaviour five years ago. Now, in all likelihood, he will have a criminal record and be unable to work in a large number of industries because of it. At 34, that's a pretty big blow.
Did Avaya screw up by paying him? YES. But kindly point me the the system that doesn't have errors (I want to study it...) Did he screw up by accepting the money? YES. But he then deliberately and knowingly accessed money in the retirement account, and that was no mistake - it was a crime that DOES have victims: everyone who partakes in the Avaya retirement plan. Just like his accepting a paycheck for work not done affected every Avaya employee, customer and shareholder, as well as now his family! He had criminal behaviour and criminal intent, and I hope he reaps the consequences of that. I feel a little sorry for his wife/kids if he has them, because they will be paying for his behaviour for a long time (unless the wife knew, in which case she's an accessory in my mind - then I'd only feel sorry for any kids).
Steph Brown
January 25, 2008 at 8:28 am
I worked at a university in northern Arizona in the late 90's. We had customized Peoplesoft HR to the point that if you terminated a person with a post dated term date - it would not see the person as terminated and checks still went out. There were 15-20 part-time instructors that received pay up to 1 yr after termination. After days of data analysis, I finally found the pattern and we began requesting the money back. We had to take legal action against some of them and those were charged interest for the time they held the money.
So I would not cash the check and would contact someone immediatly, as its only a matter of time before the error is found.
January 25, 2008 at 8:37 am
I had something like this happen to me - HR paid me a bonus that was meant for a leasing agent with a similar last name. Seeing as how I also support the HR database - and had just applied an update a few days before - I called them right away!
I had read some news stories about people who were charged with "Theft by Taking" for using money that had accidentally been deposited in their bank accounts so I knew not to keep it.
Plus as a DBA it is never good when a situation arises where people might begin to question your integrity because that then undermines their confidence in the integrity of the data and to me the integrity of the data is the most important part of being a DBA.
January 25, 2008 at 8:50 am
What amazed me on this story was that after getting 100k a year for 5 years he gets caught by trying to withdraw 2k out of the pension fund the company had contributed to.
I think we already established his stupidity in not reporting the fact he was getting paid but trying to get the pension money takes it to a whole new level of stupidity
QUOTE
"
Armatys crossed the line when he allegedly called Fidelity Investments, identified himself as an Avaya employee, and arranged the withdrawal of about $2,000 from an employee retirement fund to which the company had contributed.
"
January 25, 2008 at 9:00 am
The getting paid is questionable but definitely crossing the line when you knowingly go to pull out retirement funds.
January 25, 2008 at 9:14 am
In my opinion, the Avaya case is pretty cut and dry. Shame on him, and he pretty much deserves to feel the consequences of his actions.
I'm still, however, disturbed some others' comments posted here. What changes, if anything, if these people receiving paychecks can show that they tried to give the money back and HR/Accounting still did nothing? Is the person receiving the checks still liable?
January 25, 2008 at 9:23 am
I would report the problem IF I knew about it. This article got me to thinking about how I look at my bank statement. I don't analyze it in detail every month. I've got better things to do with my time. So, each month, I do the following quick checks: a) make sure the balance has grown over the previous month, b) make sure every deduction is legit.
It turns out, I don't pay close attention to what goes into my account. We have automatic payments where I work. The idea of money illegitimately, magically going into my account seems ludicrous. OK, I now see it could happen. But is it my responsibility to spend my precious time looking through my statements for this rare error on someone else's part? No.
Now, hopefully I would discover such a problem long before 5 years ran out. When I did, I would report it. But I don't think I should be responsible for paying back that money if I have already spent it. If I honestly thought the money was mine at the time, I think the company giving the money away through their own mistake needs to take responsibility for that mistake.
My bottom line is that I kind of agree with both sides of this discussion. I believe the company should take responsibility for their actions. I also believe that the person receiving the money has the responsibility to stop spending the money and report it as soon as the problem is discovered. At that point, the company should stop sending the extra money, apologize for the inconvenience, and thank the person for the information. The person should be able to keep the money if it is not going to break the bank of the offending institution--and if the person was honestly unaware that the money had been incorrectly entered into their account (which does not appear to be the case for the example given).
January 25, 2008 at 9:23 am
To answer your first question: Yes, I do have a red stapler. It's a Swingline model 747. Actually when Office Space was made, Swingline didn't make the stapler in red, movie studio prop folks created it. After the movie was out, there was an outcry for the "Swingline Model 747", so the company started making them! By the was, the quality is great!
January 25, 2008 at 9:24 am
Michael Ross (1/25/2008)
What changes, if anything, if these people receiving paychecks can show that they tried to give the money back and HR/Accounting still did nothing? Is the person receiving the checks still liable?
Plain and simple...If you didn't work for the money, it is (still) not yours.
As for victimless crimes, If the money was erroneously being taken out of your bank account, tell me you wouldn't be screaming "I'm a victim."
January 25, 2008 at 9:25 am
I'm just amazed at how many people right here have reported that they've had it happen to them. Maybe we need more DBA's in HR or Payroll....
The closest I've come to this experience is having my Payroll department report wages for ANOTHER Matthew Miller as my wages to the IRS. And of course, he was a Doctor, so his wages were WAY higher than mine....boy was that a fun one.... Let's just say that the payroll manager got a tin ear that day....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
January 25, 2008 at 9:51 am
Plain and simple...If you didn't work for the money, it is (still) not yours.
I wish I could see it so simply. In the beginning, yes, I agree, but I have a pessimistic attitude towards people. I've had too many situations where large institutions make mistakes, but refuse to admit it. What then? Somehow, we give them far more lattitude than we give the individual.
Another personal experience. My dad, an Army officer, did not get paid one month. After going through the proper channels, it became evident that his bank had made a mistake. The Army had records that the bank had received the funds, but the funds never made it into his account. Finally, many months later and with a little encouragement by the U.S. Army, the bank put the funds into my dad's account. My dad received no letter of apology and certainly did not receive any sort of interest or penalty fees. All he got was the stress of not being paid for a month, but still having mortgage, bills to pay, and a family to support.
If the situation were reversed, then somehow the individual is expected to pay interest and penalties.
January 25, 2008 at 10:07 am
Hi,
How would this have worked when paying tax on those earnings. Do all US citizens in employment have to submit a tax return or can a company do that on your behalf?
I guess what i'm asking here is could he be done for filing false tax returns which i imagine is treated as one step down from 1st degree murder 😀
In this situation i would pay the money back and ask the bank to block the depositing of money from the business's account. If it was a friend i would suggest they did the same. If they didn't i have a feeling Karma would get them in the end. I know i'd worry myself into an early grave waiting for the knock at the door.
K.
January 25, 2008 at 10:11 am
Carla: "If I noticed..." Consider this example: My company apparently gives a small bonus (something like $50 a year) to staff who have worked more than 5 years at the company. The increase in pay corresponds to annual merit increases and gets lumped in with the normal paycheck that automatically gets deposited in my bank account each month. No one told me about this "benefit", and because it is such a small amount and it corresponded to a pay increase that I was expecting, I went months without realizing that I was getting it. Now, what if the company had given me such a bonus incorrectly and it had been intended for another employee? What if it had gone on for years? I could easily have not noticed. Should the company not bear responsibility for their mistake?
I'm talking about a principle here. 1) It is possible and reasonable not to notice in some cases and 2) The company should take some responsibility. I wonder why you got so personal and attacking about that idea. As it turns out, I'm *extremely* detail oriented about the things that are important. I wouldn't be such a great success at my job if I was not. It is interesting that you draw this parallel: a person who prioritizes their time at home a different way than you do is also someone who can't be fanatically detail oriented in their jobs. I don't think I would want to hire someone with such poor logic thinking abilities. 😉
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