December 2, 2014 at 6:48 am
GilaMonster (12/2/2014)
For @#$^%&%$"The server's got 8 cores and 28GB of memory. It doesn't matter if it's scanning a 200 000 row table. It's not going to be a problem."
From the CTO.
Why don't you just tell me outright that you think I don't know what I'm talking about?
</rant>
I know I've been there. I've had people tell me "The server has plenty of memory. This little query won't hurt anything." Then it proceeds to drag things down to their knees. They generally don't tell me they think I'm being an idiot to me face, but later they "don't know what went wrong. I mean...it worked when I tested it. What's wrong with the server?" Then they don't want to learn about non-SARGable predicates, scans, loops, data types, etc to make things any better. Such is life.
December 2, 2014 at 6:52 am
This is just a sheer lack of indexes (pk only on all tables), compounded with Entity Framework (so essentially SELECT * for all queries) and a lack of archiving.
This is a hosted application which we sell, so load is going up and data volumes are going up. I'm trying to fix what I can before things break.
Damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I do, I'm likely to get 'see, it's working fine', if I don't, it'll all be my fault.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 2, 2014 at 7:34 am
GilaMonster (12/2/2014)
For @#$^%&%$"The server's got 8 cores and 28GB of memory. It doesn't matter if it's scanning a 200 000 row table. It's not going to be a problem."
From the CTO.
Why don't you just tell me outright that you think I don't know what I'm talking about?
</rant>
Oh the wonders of "knowledge lacking"* employees! I'm sure there is a book to be written there.
*That was the politest way I could think of phrasing it.
-------------------------------Posting Data Etiquette - Jeff Moden [/url]Smart way to ask a question
There are naive questions, tedious questions, ill-phrased questions, questions put after inadequate self-criticism. But every question is a cry to understand (the world). There is no such thing as a dumb question. ― Carl Sagan
I would never join a club that would allow me as a member - Groucho Marx
December 2, 2014 at 7:50 am
GilaMonster (12/2/2014)
For @#$^%&%$"The server's got 8 cores and 28GB of memory. It doesn't matter if it's scanning a 200 000 row table. It's not going to be a problem."
From the CTO.
Why don't you just tell me outright that you think I don't know what I'm talking about?
</rant>
Totally awesome. Give him a broomstick and tell him to sit and spin? (devil)
Maybe you could truncate the table and bring his statement to fruition. "You said it wouldn't be a problem and look at that, now you're right!"
:-D:-D:-D
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
December 2, 2014 at 7:57 am
GilaMonster (12/2/2014)
This is just a sheer lack of indexes (pk only on all tables), compounded with Entity Framework (so essentially SELECT * for all queries) and a lack of archiving.
I just threw up in my mouth. OK, I do that every time somebody mentions a tool such as that (though there was that one comment about slapping the developer to make the code better that was funny). You can even use the slang definition of tool for it if you like. 😀
This is a hosted application which we sell, so load is going up and data volumes are going up. I'm trying to fix what I can before things break.
Damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I do, I'm likely to get 'see, it's working fine', if I don't, it'll all be my fault.
Yeah, those are the fun jobs. I have had clients and employers like that. <sarcasm>EFW is the bomb and must be worshiped because it saves certain dev types a ton of time to develop. </sarcasm>
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
December 2, 2014 at 8:03 am
SQLRNNR (12/2/2014)
<sarcasm>EFW is the bomb and must be worshiped because it saves certain dev types a ton of time to develop. </sarcasm>
And reading that makes me want to throw up. I hear about how much time it saves developers. When I ask them about the SQL it generates, they don't know anything about it. They just know that it works. I've never seen EF create a good query. Then again, some people i work with use the query designer and think that's good SQL. After all, Microsoft wrote query designer, so it must be good, right? You see what I'm dealing with.
December 2, 2014 at 8:15 am
I feel for you, Gail. We're going 'round and 'round with our corporate tech department.
Us: We need a SQL Server 2012 deployment with X instances in this configuration, which is the same configuration you're currently using for SQL 2008 (see, we're obeying your standards! Be happy! @=)
Them: We're not done testing this configuration yet and won't be until 4 months after you need the upgrade. But since the boss approved this, we can give you a different server configuration to meet your deadline.
Us: Fantastic, here's the new design with the configuration changed to the new one we just agreed on.
Them: Oh, sorry. We need to finish testing AlwaysOn before we can give anyone permissions to get any of the new servers.
Us: (sigh). Okay, but we don't need Availability Groups just this moment. We can configure those after you are done testing them. We just need the database servers.
Them: We don't have time to install all this, because it hasn't been tested.
Us: You've tested the Windows install, yes? We can install and configure SQL ourselves. We've done it before.
Them: Okay. Wait... Why is your design set up this way? You need to use our standard design, the one we're using for SQL 2008.
Us: We've had this discussion before.
Them: Oh, if you want this done by Y date, you need to get an exception put through the system and get the boss to approve this. In the meantime, you can't have the memory or CPU you want for the standard configuration because we're capping it at W CPU and V Memory.
.... And the conversation continues. It's enough to make me cry.
December 2, 2014 at 8:23 am
Ed Wagner (12/2/2014)
SQLRNNR (12/2/2014)
<sarcasm>EFW is the bomb and must be worshiped because it saves certain dev types a ton of time to develop. </sarcasm>And reading that makes me want to throw up. I hear about how much time it saves developers. When I ask them about the SQL it generates, they don't know anything about it. They just know that it works. I've never seen EF create a good query. Then again, some people i work with use the query designer and think that's good SQL. After all, Microsoft wrote query designer, so it must be good, right? You see what I'm dealing with.
Yup - see it every day.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
December 2, 2014 at 8:24 am
Brandie Tarvin (12/2/2014)
I feel for you, Gail. We're going 'round and 'round with our corporate tech department.Us: We need a SQL Server 2012 deployment with X instances in this configuration, which is the same configuration you're currently using for SQL 2008 (see, we're obeying your standards! Be happy! @=)
Them: We're not done testing this configuration yet and won't be until 4 months after you need the upgrade. But since the boss approved this, we can give you a different server configuration to meet your deadline.
Us: Fantastic, here's the new design with the configuration changed to the new one we just agreed on.
Them: Oh, sorry. We need to finish testing AlwaysOn before we can give anyone permissions to get any of the new servers.
Us: (sigh). Okay, but we don't need Availability Groups just this moment. We can configure those after you are done testing them. We just need the database servers.
Them: We don't have time to install all this, because it hasn't been tested.
Us: You've tested the Windows install, yes? We can install and configure SQL ourselves. We've done it before.
Them: Okay. Wait... Why is your design set up this way? You need to use our standard design, the one we're using for SQL 2008.
Us: We've had this discussion before.
Them: Oh, if you want this done by Y date, you need to get an exception put through the system and get the boss to approve this. In the meantime, you can't have the memory or CPU you want for the standard configuration because we're capping it at W CPU and V Memory.
.... And the conversation continues. It's enough to make me cry.
Yeah that is utter nonsense. Sounds like sysadmins that have built a lot of red tape into their job to help prevent them from doing anything they don't want to do.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
December 2, 2014 at 8:25 am
Ed Wagner (12/2/2014)
SQLRNNR (12/2/2014)
<sarcasm>EFW is the bomb and must be worshiped because it saves certain dev types a ton of time to develop. </sarcasm>And reading that makes me want to throw up. I hear about how much time it saves developers. When I ask them about the SQL it generates, they don't know anything about it. They just know that it works. I've never seen EF create a good query. Then again, some people i work with use the query designer and think that's good SQL. After all, Microsoft wrote query designer, so it must be good, right? You see what I'm dealing with.
I have a power user in the office who uses the Microsoft Query Designer. He just throws the tables in there and lets the joins happen on their own. Which is horrible when it comes to columns like "CreatedOn" or "EffectiveDate", because SQL just assumes they are joinable.
Fortunately over the years I've managed to pound in the doctrine of "check the code before using it" into his head. It doesn't always happen, but he comes to us less and less as he slowly learns things like why NULL <> 0. (That was a fun discussion I had with another power user who was looking at things from an accounts receivable point of view. She even pulled up the dictionary definition of NULL to prove her point and ended up proving mine.)
December 2, 2014 at 8:33 am
SQLRNNR (12/2/2014)
Brandie Tarvin (12/2/2014)
I feel for you, Gail. We're going 'round and 'round with our corporate tech department.Us: We need a SQL Server 2012 deployment with X instances in this configuration, which is the same configuration you're currently using for SQL 2008 (see, we're obeying your standards! Be happy! @=)
Them: We're not done testing this configuration yet and won't be until 4 months after you need the upgrade. But since the boss approved this, we can give you a different server configuration to meet your deadline.
Us: Fantastic, here's the new design with the configuration changed to the new one we just agreed on.
Them: Oh, sorry. We need to finish testing AlwaysOn before we can give anyone permissions to get any of the new servers.
Us: (sigh). Okay, but we don't need Availability Groups just this moment. We can configure those after you are done testing them. We just need the database servers.
Them: We don't have time to install all this, because it hasn't been tested.
Us: You've tested the Windows install, yes? We can install and configure SQL ourselves. We've done it before.
Them: Okay. Wait... Why is your design set up this way? You need to use our standard design, the one we're using for SQL 2008.
Us: We've had this discussion before.
Them: Oh, if you want this done by Y date, you need to get an exception put through the system and get the boss to approve this. In the meantime, you can't have the memory or CPU you want for the standard configuration because we're capping it at W CPU and V Memory.
.... And the conversation continues. It's enough to make me cry.
Yeah that is utter nonsense. Sounds like sysadmins that have built a lot of red tape into their job to help prevent them from doing anything they don't want to do.
Something like that. Apparently our office scares some of the people in corporate. Some of them have the idea that we are "cowboys" or "renegades" because a satelitte office can't possibly have the same advanced skillsets as the people in corporate. If we did, obviously we'd be working in corporate instead of halfway across the country.
I understand the fear. I've seen what happens when power users think they have control of the system (I was one of them back in the day). But when we consistently prove that our requirements are specific to our line of business and have more stringent controls than they do, you'd think they would take us seriously. But nooooo. I send in a request for a new SAN drive so we can split one team's databases from our OLTP databases and it takes me two months of back and forth over why I don't want the team's space overuse to affect our high priority production dbs. #headdesk
December 2, 2014 at 8:53 am
Ed Wagner (12/2/2014)
SQLRNNR (12/2/2014)
<sarcasm>EFW is the bomb and must be worshiped because it saves certain dev types a ton of time to develop. </sarcasm>And reading that makes me want to throw up. I hear about how much time it saves developers. When I ask them about the SQL it generates, they don't know anything about it. They just know that it works. I've never seen EF create a good query. Then again, some people i work with use the query designer and think that's good SQL. After all, Microsoft wrote query designer, so it must be good, right? You see what I'm dealing with.
Oh come on Ed. EF creates awesome queries. One of our devs handed me a query that was running too slow. He said he figured I could fix it because I am "so good at optimizing queries". This beauty was around 6,000 lines long. That was not a typo. It was a "single" query with something on the order of 200 instances of the word "select". I told him I could fix his query as soon as he told me what it is doing. He said "the code is right there". I took a guess that it might take me 3 weeks to unravel that thing and a day or two to start from scratch. He decided the application could just deal with the poor performance. :w00t:
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December 2, 2014 at 9:10 am
Sean Lange (12/2/2014)
Ed Wagner (12/2/2014)
SQLRNNR (12/2/2014)
<sarcasm>EFW is the bomb and must be worshiped because it saves certain dev types a ton of time to develop. </sarcasm>And reading that makes me want to throw up. I hear about how much time it saves developers. When I ask them about the SQL it generates, they don't know anything about it. They just know that it works. I've never seen EF create a good query. Then again, some people i work with use the query designer and think that's good SQL. After all, Microsoft wrote query designer, so it must be good, right? You see what I'm dealing with.
Oh come on Ed. EF creates awesome queries. One of our devs handed me a query that was running too slow. He said he figured I could fix it because I am "so good at optimizing queries". This beauty was around 6,000 lines long. That was not a typo. It was a "single" query with something on the order of 200 instances of the word "select". I told him I could fix his query as soon as he told me what it is doing. He said "the code is right there". I took a guess that it might take me 3 weeks to unravel that thing and a day or two to start from scratch. He decided the application could just deal with the poor performance. :w00t:
Some people just don't understand that it can be easier to start from scratch if we can understand the problem, than fix a complete piece of s...
December 2, 2014 at 9:13 am
Luis Cazares (12/2/2014)
Sean Lange (12/2/2014)
Ed Wagner (12/2/2014)
SQLRNNR (12/2/2014)
<sarcasm>EFW is the bomb and must be worshiped because it saves certain dev types a ton of time to develop. </sarcasm>And reading that makes me want to throw up. I hear about how much time it saves developers. When I ask them about the SQL it generates, they don't know anything about it. They just know that it works. I've never seen EF create a good query. Then again, some people i work with use the query designer and think that's good SQL. After all, Microsoft wrote query designer, so it must be good, right? You see what I'm dealing with.
Oh come on Ed. EF creates awesome queries. One of our devs handed me a query that was running too slow. He said he figured I could fix it because I am "so good at optimizing queries". This beauty was around 6,000 lines long. That was not a typo. It was a "single" query with something on the order of 200 instances of the word "select". I told him I could fix his query as soon as he told me what it is doing. He said "the code is right there". I took a guess that it might take me 3 weeks to unravel that thing and a day or two to start from scratch. He decided the application could just deal with the poor performance. :w00t:
Some people just don't understand that it can be easier to start from scratch if we can understand the problem, than fix a complete piece of s...
+100
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
December 2, 2014 at 9:27 am
Luis Cazares (12/2/2014)
...it can be easier to start from scratch if we can understand the problem, than fix a complete piece of s...
I have this problem every time I look at my old code :w00t:
Far away is close at hand in the images of elsewhere.
Anon.
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