October 14, 2009 at 7:13 am
I would also say that a pre-requisite for a question is at least having typed it into Google first. While lmgtfy.com is funny, it gets boring after about 40 times.
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October 14, 2009 at 9:05 am
BUT I would suggest that there are probably a lot of people out there like me who trying to do their best in a difficult but rewarding job, working long hours and have families etc.
Chris, how does this make the people asking questions any different from the people who are here volunteering their time to help others?
We all have day jobs, with deadlines to meet, bills to pay, or personal lives that need attention. We aren't independently wealthy and doing this out of boredom. Although our time is just as valuable to us as yours is to you, we choose spend some of it helping others because we want to give something back.
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.
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October 14, 2009 at 9:28 am
Bob Hovious 24601 (10/14/2009)
BUT I would suggest that there are probably a lot of people out there like me who trying to do their best in a difficult but rewarding job, working long hours and have families etc.
Chris, how does this make the people asking questions any different from the people who are here volunteering their time to help others?
We all have day jobs, with deadlines to meet, bills to pay, or personal lives that need attention. We aren't independently wealthy and doing this out of boredom. Although our time is just as valuable to us as yours is to you, we choose spend some of it helping others because we want to give something back.
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.
Bob put that really well. We are volunteers on this site and we try helping others as a way to give back to the SQL Server community. I personally have found SSC to be a tremendous site, and several of the heavy hitters here I consider mentors having learned things here I hadn't even thought of before. I also have come to think of many of the regulars here as friends.
SSC is a true SQL Server community and if you take the time to look around and interact I'm sure you will see that as well.
Good to see you and hope to see you around the forums.
October 14, 2009 at 9:59 am
Bob Hovious 24601 (10/14/2009)
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.
10000% agree.
And sometimes the attitudes just get too much.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 14, 2009 at 10:12 am
GilaMonster (10/14/2009)
Bob Hovious 24601 (10/14/2009)
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.10000% agree.
10000% agree too, but I want to add one group to what Bob said. That's the people that don't show signs of having tried to help themselves first.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
October 14, 2009 at 10:16 am
Bob Hovious 24601 (10/14/2009)
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.
First off I am a big fan of SSC and really appreciate all you do for the community. THANK YOU!!!
I was just wondering (in case I may have some questions in the future) what's so different about this post: Delete Duplicates then this one: query to modify .
Both are marked urgent, both don't give the proper table definitions or sample data, one gets the answer within 5mins and the other is made fun of. Any particular reason? It's not that I don't agree that you need more info to help but why the bias?
Thanks,
Supriya
October 14, 2009 at 10:17 am
Alvin Ramard (10/14/2009)
GilaMonster (10/14/2009)
Bob Hovious 24601 (10/14/2009)
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.10000% agree.
10000% agree too, but I want to add one group to what Bob said. That's the people that don't show signs of having tried to help themselves first.
And the people that insult you after you've tried to help them
And the people that can't tolerate been corrected
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 14, 2009 at 10:20 am
s ss (10/14/2009)
I was just wondering (in case I may have some questions in the future) what's so different about this post: Delete Duplicates then this one: query to modify .
The first one has enough information to solve. It may not be formatted the best way, but it's there. The second I've read 3 times and I don't understand fully what the guy's asking.
p.s. I didn't see anyone making fun of it. Requests for more information. Question on why it's urgent, but no one making fun of the question.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 14, 2009 at 10:23 am
s ss (10/14/2009)
Bob Hovious 24601 (10/14/2009)
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.
First off I am a big fan of SSC and really appreciate all you do for the community. THANK YOU!!!
I was just wondering (in case I may have some questions in the future) what's so different about this post: Delete Duplicates then this one: query to modify .
Both are marked urgent, both don't give the proper table definitions or sample data, one gets the answer within 5mins and the other is made fun of. Any particular reason? It's not that I don't agree that you need more info to help but why the bias?
Thanks,
Supriya
I'll make a pass at it, although I doubt I'll be able to completely answer. First off, response time is just random. It's not like we're working under and SLA. So one guy received an answer within 5 minutes the other waited longer... it just happens.
Who responds first is a big part of it, but also the way the first question was asked provided enough information for people to make a guess at an answer based on provided information, not a guess based on a previous knowledge of the same question being asked before.
Other than that, I'll note that the first OP responded with updates. The second OP disappeared, despite having an "urgent" problem.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
October 14, 2009 at 10:33 am
GilaMonster (10/14/2009)
Bob Hovious 24601 (10/14/2009)
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.10000% agree.
And sometimes the attitudes just get too much.
Welcome back! 🙂
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
October 14, 2009 at 10:37 am
Grant Fritchey (10/14/2009)
s ss (10/14/2009)
Bob Hovious 24601 (10/14/2009)
This is why people who waste our time are irritating, as are the people who insist that their problems are urgent and somehow more deserving of assistance. The one attitude I cannot stand is "It's all about me, and you people were put on earth for my convenience." It's not, and we're not.
First off I am a big fan of SSC and really appreciate all you do for the community. THANK YOU!!!
I was just wondering (in case I may have some questions in the future) what's so different about this post: Delete Duplicates then this one: query to modify .
Both are marked urgent, both don't give the proper table definitions or sample data, one gets the answer within 5mins and the other is made fun of. Any particular reason? It's not that I don't agree that you need more info to help but why the bias?
Thanks,
Supriya
I'll make a pass at it, although I doubt I'll be able to completely answer. First off, response time is just random. It's not like we're working under and SLA. So one guy received an answer within 5 minutes the other waited longer... it just happens.
Who responds first is a big part of it, but also the way the first question was asked provided enough information for people to make a guess at an answer based on provided information, not a guess based on a previous knowledge of the same question being asked before.
Other than that, I'll note that the first OP responded with updates. The second OP disappeared, despite having an "urgent" problem.
But people who responded to the second post knew the solution; they could have just made a guess at it. I totally agree that the second OP should have at least justified himself/herself instead of just disappearing.
October 14, 2009 at 11:03 am
GilaMonster (10/14/2009)
s ss (10/14/2009)
I was just wondering (in case I may have some questions in the future) what's so different about this post: Delete Duplicates then this one: query to modify .The first one has enough information to solve. It may not be formatted the best way, but it's there. The second I've read 3 times and I don't understand fully what the guy's asking.
Maybe you or I didn't understand but from the post it looked like people responding to it did. So why not give the answer? Why wasn't the first OP asked about his urgency?
p.s. I didn't see anyone making fun of it. Requests for more information. Question on why it's urgent, but no one making fun of the question.
Sorry Gail, that's how I took it.
(I too have had laughs over others expense which I regret now; not too proud of it now :()
October 14, 2009 at 11:29 am
Both are marked urgent, both don't give the proper table definitions or sample data, one gets the answer within 5mins and the other is made fun of. Any particular reason?
I will answer speaking only for myself.
The posts I saw in "query to modify" didn't poke fun at the OP, but they did call attention to his use of the word urgent. There seem to be more problems lately being labeled as urgent. This is mildly annoying because they aren't urgent any more than anyone else's questions are, and an online forum such as SSC is definitely not set up to handle emergency questions. We're developing code in the T-SQL forums, it's not like a hospital emergency room .
I had a solution for the OP in "query to modify", just waiting if had he bothered to respond. I stared at his question for a while and finally realized what he was asking for (I think). It only took a couple of minutes to convert his post into an actual usable script, and he would have gotten my work, along with a mild lecture about using that as a template the next time he submitted a problem.
As for response time, don't confuse SSC with a staffed help desk. There is a lot of expertise here but it it is all volunteer and all pretty much uncoordinated. My guess is that volunteers look in when they are on break or are off the clock on their regular jobs. They scan the questions for anything interesting, or simple enough to be answered in a short time, and may not even bother to post anything. But the volunteers don't work set hours or coordinate with one another. It's entirely possible for a question to be asked and no one even looks at it for over an hour.
Online forums are a medium best suited for questions to be answered within a couple of days, not within a few minutes. The problem is that answers at SSC usually are forthcoming within minutes and the quality is more than good enough to keep the OPs coming back for more. I expect students may tell their friends. This leads to high expectation levels and possibly a sense of entitlement in many of the OPs. This is only reinforced by the overall level of professionalism displayed.
I am doing my own small part to bring down the overall level of professionalism. 😛
Finally, as to why I didn't take the OP in "delete duplicates" to task over his use of the word urgent? The answer is simple: I didn't notice it. I'll go attend to that now.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
October 14, 2009 at 11:40 am
s ss (10/14/2009)
GilaMonster (10/14/2009)
s ss (10/14/2009)
I was just wondering (in case I may have some questions in the future) what's so different about this post: Delete Duplicates then this one: query to modify .The first one has enough information to solve. It may not be formatted the best way, but it's there. The second I've read 3 times and I don't understand fully what the guy's asking.
Maybe you or I didn't understand but from the post it looked like people responding to it did. So why not give the answer? Why wasn't the first OP asked about his urgency?
p.s. I didn't see anyone making fun of it. Requests for more information. Question on why it's urgent, but no one making fun of the question.
Sorry Gail, that's how I took it.
(I too have had laughs over others expense which I regret now; not too proud of it now :()
On the first one, the posted question is pretty much enough to solve the problem. There are some points of the solution that I would question/challenge, but it's the right basic idea for deduping in 2005/2008.
On the second one, I haven't the faintest clue what he's actually trying to do. The part with "I have data like" doesn't even begin to make sense to me.
On the point of urgency, I assume that if the person says it's urgent, it probably is urgent for them. Urgency is a subjective matter. Bob felt otherwise. Different people, different responses. Humans are like that. (The human mind being a completely non-deterministic engine.)
I can't speak for anyone else, but speed of reply in my case involves a number of factors, including how often I check the forums (biggest factor), is the category one that I feel I can possibly contribute to (second), and does the subject line catch my interest (third). After those combine to determine whether/when I look at the post, a lot depends on how well written the post is, how long it is, and my estimation of effort for helping out on it.
If I open up a post, and it looks like it's going to take more than a few minutes to read, and longer than that to figure out what's being requested, quite often I'll move on to another post. I have a limited amount of time to spend on posts here, and if I waste 20 minutes trying to figure out what's being requested, that's probably 4 or 5 people I could have helped on simpler/better-written posts.
If I read and understand the post, and think it'll take hours of work to sort out, I'll pass it up, or give a short answer that I hope will point the person in the direction of solving it themselves. Two reasons: First, I don't have time for that kind of thing most days; Second: I'm stealing bread from the mouths of consultants and other professionals quite unfairly. Some days, neither of those matters to me, and I'll spend hours on an intriguing problem. If the problem means I get to fire up some extra brain cells that are getting lazy from the lack of stimulus in my own job, I can end up spending days on it.
Are any of those "fair"? Are they "just"? Probably not. Are they the actual criteria I really use? Yep. Anyone who disagrees with them is completely free to come up with their own rules and follow/break them their own way.
(And, yes, you can probably judge my level of boredom at work by my number of posts on any given day. My job pays the bills - well, mostly - but it's a snoozefest when it comes to challenge/stimulation. Strictly shallow-end-of-the-pool coding, and kiddie pool administration.)
Does that clarify any of this?
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October 14, 2009 at 12:27 pm
My saying "within 5mins" meant the OP asked a question without table definitions, insert scripts and saying it's urgent still got an answer without anyone asking him to google it (which was my first thought) or asking why it was urgent.
I now understand from what Gus and Bob are saying that the first OP's question was really simple to answer and that his way of asking was better. As for the second OP's question it needed more of coding and hence the need for table definitions and insert scripts.Maybe the OP was onto it or was researching the term "unpivot" but since he didn't respond we may never know.
Can anyone tell me how he should have asked the question (without the table def and insert scripts) so that he could also have gotten a solution?
Finally, as to why I didn't take the OP in "delete duplicates" to task over his use of the word urgent? The answer is simple: I didn't notice it. I'll go attend to that now.
Bob, please no need to attend to that. It would be more helpful if you could post the solution to "query to modify" here; would love to see it.
Thanks to all for taking the time out and giving your thoughts on it.
Happy Wednesday!!
Regards,
Supriya
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