April 18, 2013 at 11:27 am
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
Also, tell the candidate up front that all new hires are required to sign an "employment at-will" contract. If they don't measure up, then they'll just get dumped back on the curb with a ding on their employment history.
Down here, that would be illegal and get the employer hauled up before the labour board, probably hit with a large fine and ordered to re-hire that person at full salary and benefits.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 18, 2013 at 11:35 am
GilaMonster (4/18/2013)
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
Also, tell the candidate up front that all new hires are required to sign an "employment at-will" contract. If they don't measure up, then they'll just get dumped back on the curb with a ding on their employment history.Down here, that would be illegal and get the employer hauled up before the labour board, probably hit with a large fine and ordered to re-hire that person at full salary and benefits.
Then how does a company get rid of a bad hire, that "doesn't measure up"?
April 18, 2013 at 11:39 am
pdanes (4/18/2013)
GilaMonster (4/18/2013)
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
Also, tell the candidate up front that all new hires are required to sign an "employment at-will" contract. If they don't measure up, then they'll just get dumped back on the curb with a ding on their employment history.Down here, that would be illegal and get the employer hauled up before the labour board, probably hit with a large fine and ordered to re-hire that person at full salary and benefits.
Then how does a company get rid of a bad hire, that "doesn't measure up"?
That's the thing - in a lot of countries, there's no "at will" aspect to employment. In France for example employees acquire substantial rights from day one, making it VERY difficult to get rid of "bad choices" AFTER: you're stuck with being very good at id'ing poor choices up front.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
April 18, 2013 at 11:42 am
pdanes (4/18/2013)
GilaMonster (4/18/2013)
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
Also, tell the candidate up front that all new hires are required to sign an "employment at-will" contract. If they don't measure up, then they'll just get dumped back on the curb with a ding on their employment history.Down here, that would be illegal and get the employer hauled up before the labour board, probably hit with a large fine and ordered to re-hire that person at full salary and benefits.
Then how does a company get rid of a bad hire, that "doesn't measure up"?
With extreme difficulty.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 18, 2013 at 12:01 pm
GilaMonster (4/18/2013)
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
Also, tell the candidate up front that all new hires are required to sign an "employment at-will" contract. If they don't measure up, then they'll just get dumped back on the curb with a ding on their employment history.Down here, that would be illegal and get the employer hauled up before the labour board, probably hit with a large fine and ordered to re-hire that person at full salary and benefits.
I was serious about the "employment at-will" contract, if that's an option in your country or state. It can include provisions for things like severance pay or temporary insurance based on the duration the employment lasted.
The remark about the candidate getting dumped on the curb if they don't measure up; that's not something which should be stated directly, however, the implication should be understood by the candidate. There are some professions, like factory / mine workers, or even school teachers or city employees, where limited unionization and government regulation makes sense, but certainly not Information Technology.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
April 18, 2013 at 12:05 pm
Where I live, even asking a candidate to sign an at-will contract can get the company hauled up before the labour board and fined heavily, severance pay or no severance pay, regardless of industry, and that's for employees that aren't part of a union.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 18, 2013 at 12:14 pm
GilaMonster (4/18/2013)
Where I live, even asking a candidate to sign an at-will contract can get the company hauled up before the labour board and fined heavily, severance pay or no severance pay, regardless of industry, and that's for employees that aren't part of a union.
Based on your personal experience and observation; are these labor laws good, sometimes useful because of bad employers, or generally just a bad idea?
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
April 18, 2013 at 12:36 pm
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
I was serious about the "employment at-will" contract, if that's an option in your country or state. It can include provisions for things like severance pay or temporary insurance based on the duration the employment lasted.The remark about the candidate getting dumped on the curb if they don't measure up; that's not something which should be stated directly, however, the implication should be understood by the candidate. There are some professions, like factory / mine workers, or even school teachers or city employees, where limited unionization and government regulation makes sense, but certainly not Information Technology.
I'll play along, what's "doesn't measure up"? It's the same issue we have with evaluating skills. If someone says they know mirroring, but they make a mistake in configuring, is that not measuring up? If they need to look in BOL to get syntax or make sure they understand something, is that?
It's very easy to say we know when someone "doesn't measure up", but in reality there's a ton of opinion and subjectivity here.
Personally I'd prefer people sign a short term contract, say a one 4 week contract, with the option on either side to renew/not renew after three weeks.
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April 18, 2013 at 1:38 pm
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
GilaMonster (4/18/2013)
Where I live, even asking a candidate to sign an at-will contract can get the company hauled up before the labour board and fined heavily, severance pay or no severance pay, regardless of industry, and that's for employees that aren't part of a union.Based on your personal experience and observation; are these labor laws good, sometimes useful because of bad employers, or generally just a bad idea?
A pain in general, people don't want to hire without being very sure of the person they're hiring, you can't get rid of someone incompetent and then there's the whole preferential hiring thing.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 18, 2013 at 2:01 pm
Sounds like government and union shops here in the US.
Cheers
April 18, 2013 at 2:06 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/18/2013)
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
I was serious about the "employment at-will" contract, if that's an option in your country or state. It can include provisions for things like severance pay or temporary insurance based on the duration the employment lasted.The remark about the candidate getting dumped on the curb if they don't measure up; that's not something which should be stated directly, however, the implication should be understood by the candidate. There are some professions, like factory / mine workers, or even school teachers or city employees, where limited unionization and government regulation makes sense, but certainly not Information Technology.
I'll play along, what's "doesn't measure up"? It's the same issue we have with evaluating skills. If someone says they know mirroring, but they make a mistake in configuring, is that not measuring up? If they need to look in BOL to get syntax or make sure they understand something, is that?
It's very easy to say we know when someone "doesn't measure up", but in reality there's a ton of opinion and subjectivity here.
Personally I'd prefer people sign a short term contract, say a one 4 week contract, with the option on either side to renew/not renew after three weeks.
You're right, "not measuring up" is too vague. What I'm really talking about here are candidates who misrepresent themselves in a substantial way (lied about university degree, job history, etc.), or if it is discovered that they can't fullfill the basic requirements of the position they were hired for.
Even an employee who has been on the job for more than a year may at some point not live up to expectations about availability, continuing education, or just how they perform when under pressure. An IT guy who can't perform under pressure is next to useless, even if he's smart. Sometimes how a person performs as part of a new team is drastically different from how they performed in past when working solo or remotely. It's difficult to guage how adaptable a person is when interviewing. However, if an employee is working "at-will", then there is a powerful motivation there to be adapable to a wide range of expectations going forward. It's also a motivation for the employer too. We've all heard stories about IT shops that went bust because the most talented staff members got fed up with management, etc. and walked out the door and into the door of another company.
That type of dynamic "at-will" culture can actually be a good thing for the industry... on balance. Of course it doesn't work for the benefit of everyone.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
April 18, 2013 at 2:10 pm
It is one thing to ask for questions. It is an entirely different thing to ask for the answers to those questions.
Getting an idea of questions to be asked isn't too terribly bad because it helps to understand what might be asked.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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April 18, 2013 at 2:35 pm
WayneS (4/18/2013)
Personally, I'm not opposed to folks asking for questions. Steve mentioned lots of good reasons for them.What I am opposed to is providing the answers to said questions. If you need to know these answers, look them up for yourself. And I think that this is what most people on this site are really opposed to.
+1
Spoon feed a infant not a potential employee!
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
April 18, 2013 at 2:48 pm
This request would not have bothered me in the least, I just wouldn't have given them to the person and just calmly told them to go do their own legwork.. I would not have gotten pissed off by it though. That's silly. Like my grandmother used to say so eloquently and calmly: "You can ask all you want...":-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
April 18, 2013 at 3:30 pm
Eric M Russell (4/18/2013)
An IT guy who can't perform under pressure is next to useless, even if he's smart.
I have to admit, I don't like to work under pressure. What sort of situations would you consider to be a "pressure" generating duty?
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