November 10, 2010 at 9:47 am
Politicians spend billions on fixed guideway (train) systems that can't even carry enough passengers to make up for a single lane of highway capacity ... rather than spending the mere millions to add a lane to the highway.
Even if rail costs more to build, it costs less to maintain. Repaving, line painting, etc. every couple of years adds up. The rails are expected to last 30 or 40. You mentioned Denver, think about how much more work it is to clear snow from hiways (including shoulders, ramps, etc.) than from a rail line. You should see the snow blowers they can put on a locomotive, and they don't have to worry about hitting a car on the side of the road.
And believe me when I tell you that "mere millions" will not add a lane to a highway in built up areas.
http://www.iccproject.com/general-faq.php
An 18 mile hiway in the OUTER suburbs and we are talking $2.566 billion (if no cost overruns)
The 16 mile light rail they are building in the INNER suburbs is 1.6 billion
By my math that works out to the rail being 30% cheaper up front.
Oh, you say, that's a new road. They are adding HOT lanes to the capital beltway, 14 miles for 1.9 billion.
At the same time (and place, what a mess) they are building a 23 mile heavy rail line for 2.1 billion.
I will concede that it would cost less to add a mile of hiway lane halfway between Colorado Springs and Pueblo, but once you get into the built up areas the price goes way up.
November 10, 2010 at 9:58 am
Ever been to Seattle or Houston? They can add lanes to a highway without land acquisition costs (double deckers).
Land acquisition cost in the Denver area is one of the two reasons that our light rail is WAY over budget (double at last check).
And for what? Because rich people don't like riding "dirty" busses with poor people on them? They want a fancy train instead.
The most immoral thing about this? We pay a regressive sales tax, which hits poor people harder than rich people, so that rich people who could easily afford to drive can ride a train instead. The cost subsidies per passenger mile are rediculously high for fixed guideways, and as plenty of others have pointed out, they suffer from the last mile problem (unlike roads).
The common sense solution is local bus service + BRT running on new HOT/HOV lanes. Costs less, check. Increased efficiency, check. Reduced pollution, check. Decreased congestion, check. Gets public transportation to people who truly need it, check. No last mile problem, check.
But politicians screw it all up...
November 10, 2010 at 10:02 am
Adam Gardner (11/10/2010)
Ever been to Seattle or Houston? They can add lanes to a highway without land acquisition costs (double deckers).Land acquisition cost in the Denver area is one of the two reasons that our light rail is WAY over budget (double at last check).
And for what? Because rich people don't like riding "dirty" busses with poor people on them? They want a fancy train instead.
The most immoral thing about this? We pay a regressive sales tax, which hits poor people harder than rich people, so that rich people who could easily afford to drive can ride a train instead. The cost subsidies per passenger mile are rediculously high for fixed guideways, and as plenty of others have pointed out, they suffer from the last mile problem (unlike roads).
The common sense solution is local bus service + BRT running on new HOT/HOV lanes. Costs less, check. Increased efficiency, check. Reduced pollution, check. Decreased congestion, check. Gets public transportation to people who truly need it, check. No last mile problem, check.
But politicians screw it all up...
I've lived in both Seattle and Houston.
The Houston solutions for traffic have resulted in the worst driving conditions I've ever had to deal with. And I lived in LA for 10 years, and in Washington, DC, too. Whatever you do, don't tout Houston as a solution for anything having to do with transportation. Commuting there is horrible, even over short distances.
When I lived there, Seattle had the best bus routes and system of any city I've lived in. The freeways weren't that impressive (but could have changed over the years since I was last there), but the public transportation was definitely top notch.
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November 10, 2010 at 10:03 am
ahhh viewed from the bureaucratic perspective...
But people don't cooperate that well with top down, decided scenarios.
Actually, I was looking at it as a real estate investor (which I am part time)
The point I was trying to make was that even people who like the plan will not invest money in the vision if they perceive it as ephemeral.
Detroit has extensive rail transportation to largely abandoned areas.
Detroit is shrinking so much that it would be hard to imagine any transportation plan from 30 years ago that would not end up serving "largely abandoned areas" now. I am willing to bet that when Detroit comes back (and unless our national population starts shrinking it will) the redevelopment will favor areas served by train.
November 10, 2010 at 10:12 am
Adam Gardner (11/10/2010)
Steve - Ever try to ride your bike to work via Bus/Train in Denver? I have many times. It's a nightmare. Arrive at work sweaty - no place to shower. Add 1+ hour to daily commute time, taken directly from my daughter and wife. Not to mention this is completely impossible in the winter.Public transit is fine, and a good thing for people who can't afford cars. These people's employment options are dramatically increased by the availability of public transit. Then, after working a time at a good job, they invariably buy a car.
This is known as the "American Dream", part of which is that if you work hard, educate yourself, save up, and otherwise stay productive, that you can eventually buy a nice house in the suburbs with a yard big enough to ride horses and/or allow the kids to play in the yard.
Sound familiar Steve? You wouldn't be one of those people that wants everyone else to ride the bus/train so the highways will be nice and clear for your SUV? You wouldn't be one of those people who wants everyone else to live in densly packed urban centers so you can afford a larger parcel of property (due to supply/demand) in the suburbs?
It feels like you're making an assumption that your situation is for everyone. I'm certainly not thinking everyone should do this, but that it is a possibility and it works. I used to ride my bike to work 4 days a week. I stopped when we stopped having a shower at work, and it took slightly longer (40 min instead of 20), but it also was my exercise/thinking time, so on a balance it worked for me.
If you don't have a shower, don't do it. Or if you need to be non-sweaty at work, don't do it. Do what works. However don't dismiss it because you don't like it, or don't dismiss it for others because it doesn't work for you.
I still use light rail to go downtown often, and accept the extra time when it works. It's a more efficient use of resources. When it doesn't, and it sometimes doesn't, I drive.
I want people to do what works for them, consider options, and not knock everyone else's choices.
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November 10, 2010 at 10:20 am
Living in London you don't really need a car. I only learnt to drive in my late 30s, and have had the battery in may car go flat on me three times because of not using the thing for ages (Doh, I know)
I must admit, I think I would really hate to be as reliant on cars as many Americans seem to be. I cycle to work (we have showers) and use trains and buses when going out. I like being able to relax and read a magazine whilst travelling. Much better then driving.
If my car could drive itself, however.....
November 10, 2010 at 10:32 am
Steve,
I'm all about people doing what works for them, and not imposing their preferences on someone else. I apologize that I thought you were doing precisely that and for the negative tone.
If we could all do what works for us all the time, with minimal government intervention, there's this wonderful thing called price which ensures that we will all get what we want/need if we're willing to work for it. (see http://www.taloustieteellinenyhdistys.fi/images/stories/fep/fep19891_8.pdf)
Here's to liberty!
Adam
November 10, 2010 at 10:59 am
No worries, Adam, and perhaps I didn't express myself well before.
Price is a good measure, but not perfect. I think it's worth it for us to try different things. Note that I'd love a train system to go skiing since traffic is horrible, but I don't think it would work great. I have enjoyed the buses in places like Winter Park, and I think they work better than driving once you're up there.
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November 10, 2010 at 11:56 am
The true test of an automated driving system will be how it responds when a squirrel runs onto the road.
November 10, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Kevin Hood (11/10/2010)
The true test of an automated driving system will be how it responds when a squirrel runs onto the road.
Ha, that's not a test. Unless you mean there might be an Easter Egg that aims for it.
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November 10, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Kevin Hood (11/10/2010)
The true test of an automated driving system will be how it responds when a squirrel runs onto the road.
Or someone's kid.
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November 11, 2010 at 10:15 am
There is a form of transportation that will drive for you.
When my father was young, he would go into town on weekends and sometimes get very drunk. He would crawl into the back of the wagon that he drove to town, fall asleep, and wake up in the morning at home. The horse would take him home while he slept, because it was smart enough to know that it wasn't going to get fed until it was home.
November 11, 2010 at 10:18 am
Good blog here on why automated cars will take over. I'm inclined to agree with him.
November 11, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Freddie-304292 (11/11/2010)
Good blog here on why automated cars will take over. I'm inclined to agree with him.
I agree partially. If his "car-on-demand" or "just-in-time-car" or whatever you wanted to call it were as viable and community-transforming as he thinks, cab companies would already have that market. Where it's already been at least partially implemented, like New York city, it works, but it doesn't really do any of what he suggests. At least not in the form he supposes.
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November 12, 2010 at 3:28 am
I think it could take off in big cities. They should be cheaper then cabs, as there's no expensive driver to pay, which will make all the difference. People who commute by car will still want to own one as it will probably work out cheaper, but for those of us who only use the car when shopping for large items, this will be ideal.
I also think people won't bother learning to drive once they don't have too. If you've been used to people driving all your life the idea of cars driving themselves might seem alien. But once people are used to them, the idea of driving yourself will seem as strange as a world without the internet would seem to today's youth. To be able to get your first car without having to go through all those boring expensive lessons will be a big disincentive to learning to drive at all. I reckon the skill will die out within a generation or two.
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