March 29, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Good day
Recently I went from a team of one, to a team of 5, and I seem to have gone from "go to guy" to the "green guy on the block". I have been doing SQL Server for nearly 10 years. I looked around at some of my new team members (Great guys!), and one thing that seemed to have stuck out is the level of education. I have a "programming certificate" when Y2K was big...schools were just cranking out students. My coworkers have at least bachelor degree's.
Until recently, it was my opinion that real world experience was more appealing than a piece of paper that some school gave out. Now I have started to rethink that...
Am I wrong? Right? I have researched some schools, and have one that is very appealing, the price is more that I think I can take on, but, maybe I cannot afford to NOT do it as well. My company is toying with the idea of tuition reimbursement for 2009, but I may get started now...get a jump on it. Since I would not be going full time to school, this degree would take quite some time.
TIA for any info you feel like sharing!
-- Cory
March 29, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Before you even think of spending the 20 to 30 thousand dollars to get a Bachelor's degree...
Why do you feel like the "green guy"? Why do you feel like you need a degree to keep up with those that have one, especially in light of the fact that you've got 10 years of SQL under your belt? What makes you think that those with degrees are so much better than you? Do you think having a degree will help you get a job or a better paying job?
If you can come up with any practical answers to the questions above, then maybe a degree is right for you. If not, then probably not.
--Jeff Moden
March 29, 2008 at 11:24 pm
I'm not really trying to discourage anyone from getting a degree... but consider this...
Against my wishes, the company hired a guy who had a PHd in Mathematics as the Senior Java Developer... he couldn't tell me what 20 was, couldn't convert 1416 to base 10, and couldn't tell me how to keep a user from pressing the "Save" button more than once. He didn't know that you could do an INSERT/SELECT and didn't know you could update more than one row at a time without using correlated sub-queries.
I interviewed 4 folks with Masters degrees in Computer Science that couldn't tell me how much 23 was nor how to get the current system date and time in either SQL Server or Oracle... and one of them claimed to be a 9 out of 10 in both!
I had two certified DBA's that I worked with as SQL Developers... neither one knew what a Numbers or Tally table was... neither one knew that triggers had two tables associated with them. Both thought processing 10,000 rows in a minute was some sort of genius level. Neither of them knew how to look at a query and figure out what index should be created. And, neither of them knew the half dozen ways to add 60 seconds to a date without doing base 24 and base 60 math.
If you're going to get a degree or a certification, learn something before you come to see me for a job.
--Jeff Moden
March 30, 2008 at 6:29 am
I have nothing against getting a degree, but, as Jeff said, I am not sure what you gain on top of your experience. Do you feel green because the others are talking about theory that you don't fully understand or because they are writing code much better performing than yours?
I do not have any type of degree or certificate in Computer Science, and yes, there are some theories I don't know and areas I need work and I work on them, but I have met many with degrees who can't do the basics especially in database work. Most CS programs I know of have virtually no database classes so you have to learn it all after graduation anyway.
You obviously knew enough to get hired, now take advantage of the knowledge of your co-workers. Don't be embarrassed by a a lack of knowledge, no one can know anything. When in doubt, ask! When you believe you are right stick to your guns. Also take advantage of resources like SSC, user groups, etc... If you really feel like you have gaps that need to be filled just take those classes or get a book on those areas. If you have a degree in anything it might be worthwhile to get an advanced degree in CS.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 30, 2008 at 7:29 am
Jeff Moden (3/30/2008)
Why do you feel like the "green guy"? Why do you feel like you need a degree to keep up with those that have one, especially in light of the fact that you've got 10 years of SQL under your belt? What makes you think that those with degrees are so much better than you? Do you think having a degree will help you get a job or a better paying job?
I feel like the green guy because these guys seem to understand many more "area's" of SQL server - some I didn't not really think was part of being a SQL DBA. Perhaps, it is more that - I was more an admin, I kept the box running and DB's backed up. I want to know get more into the nuts and bolts, such as 'WHY is the optimizer picking this plan?', or 'WHY is this proc using CXWait's?' maybe get more into modeling, DB design, BI, etc.
Maybe I am feeling I need to, before these guys came on board, I over heard a developer say to his boss 'When we get a real dba...'.
Also - I looked at some of the job posting sites, and I see almost all jobs state 'Bachelors degree or similar experience' (When looking for a job I always ignored that, and applied anyway) or 'Bachelors Degree required' (These I would still try for, but not put much hope in them).
Jeff Moden (3/30/2008)
Against my wishes, the company hired a guy who had a PHd in Mathematics as the Senior Java Developer... he couldn't tell me what 20 was, couldn't convert 1416 to base 10, and couldn't tell me how to keep a user from pressing the "Save" button more than once. He didn't know that you could do an INSERT/SELECT and didn't know you could update more than one row at a time without using correlated sub-queries.
This seems to just prove my point - if people can get jobs JUST because they have a degree over someone else who doesn't have a degree - wouldn't getting the degree make getting a job, or at least an interview, easier? I am not doing this for a job, I have one. I am not doing this to change jobs. I am not doing this for "right now", more so, ten years from now. In this field, it is not uncommon to jump jobs every 3 - 6 years.
Jack Corbett (3/30/2008)
You obviously knew enough to get hired, now take advantage of the knowledge of your coworkers. Don't be embarrassed by a a lack of knowledge, no one can know anything. When in doubt, ask! When you believe you are right stick to your guns. Also take advantage of resources like SSC, user groups, etc...
I agree - I have been trying to leverage any and all I can from these guys. If I don't know, I look it up - SSC, google, BOL...if I come up short, I ask these guys.
If anyone is interested, here is the site to the school I was looking at. http://www.capella.edu/schools_programs/undergraduate_studies/technology/information_technology.aspx
-- Cory
March 30, 2008 at 9:57 am
I've got news for you Cory... getting the Bachelor's degree didn't make those guys smarter about SQL Server nor did it get them their jobs. A well written resume and experience did.
A well written resume with a list of major accomplishments and the correct objective on the front page works as well as having a degree even for those jobs that say you must have a degree.
By the way... none of the Master's degrees I interviewed were hired and the PHd had to quit after 3 weeks because, just like I said, he didn't know either about his own major, nor did he know well enough about Java.
Don't let the ring knockers bother you... do the absolute best you can. Don't let the ring knockers know you don't have a degree and they'll think you do.
All that being said, if you really want to go for the degree because it'll make you feel better and more confident, then definitely go for the degree. But if you think it's gonna help you get a better job than practicing SQL to become an SQL Ninja, I think you're in for a big expensive surprise.
--Jeff Moden
March 30, 2008 at 10:31 am
I have always felt that experience is better than paper. I am not looking for a job, at least not now. I am looking to make sure I am adequately set up to support my family for years to come.
Maybe a followup question is this - would it be better that I look at getting MS certified?
This has been good info - It is making me rethink this all.
-- Cory
March 30, 2008 at 10:42 am
While I agree with Jeff on the "having a degree to GET a job" wasn't all that important, I can say that I have been on the receiving end of various "reindeer games" (I'm thinking another expression, but that's language not acceptable for this forum:)) from 2 separate HR departments trying to use that as a reason for dropping pay. Meaning - penalize you for not having it.
Meaning - the technical folks interviewing you should be able to see right past it, but you may find that the HR department behind them isn't nearly that "forgiving". Depending on how much the department "wants" you, you may find that they can make sure that doesn't happen, but not always.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
March 30, 2008 at 10:57 am
Hey Matt -
Thanks for the input - that is another reason that I didnt mention - I was not sure if that was a common practice or not, as I have only worked for a couple companies in the past 10 years.
I am still toying with the idea - I check out another college tomorrow. I may just need to sit on it till tuition reimbursement kicks in.
Thanks all!
-- Cory
March 30, 2008 at 11:26 am
Cory,
Certainly having a degree won't hurt you, but I know several very good programmers and SQL Server people who do not have a Bachelor's, but an associated from a good technical school. As Jeff said a well written resume with real accomplishments will usually be enough, especially with 10 years experience. Now if you have 2-3 years the degree would be a big help.
As far as certs, I think they help get a job, but I am not a big fan of them. Granted it has been several years since I looked at a test, but the tests ask questions that most of us will probably never deal with.
You want the nuts and bolts information. Get the Inside SQL Server books. Also read some of the blogs out there by people like Paul Randall, Kimberley Tripp, and Kalen Delaney. There is a good set of blogs at www.sqlskills.com
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 30, 2008 at 12:03 pm
From what you've said, I would not suggest you consider a degree at the moment.
For the record, I have a B.SC and I'm currently studying for my M.Sc. so I'm not anti-degrees or anything. When I started the M.SC, there was a course I had to do, and part of it discussed the reason that one is studying. It's aimed at postgrad, but applies to undergrad as well. I'll paraphrase a bit from the book
How to succeed in your Master's and Doctoral studies, by Johann Mouton
It is important to distinguish between intrinsic and extrinsic rewards associated with studies. Intrinsic rewards refer to then pleasure gained from discovering something, in satisfying one's curiosity, in learning something new, acquiring knowledge and gaining insights.Extrinsic rewards can take various forms including a higher salary, a promotion, recognition from others or the fact that you can write PhD on your business card.
Although one's motivation is normally a combination of intrinsic and extrinsic factors, most people will recommend that you do not pursue a degree solely for the anticipated extrinsic rewards.
If your only reason for enrolling is for the career prospects, you are doing so for the wrong reason.
A degree is a massive commitment, beyond the financial aspect. A full time undergrad degree (at least here in SA) is three years. Part time, you're looking at longer. You'll probably be spending an average of 2-3 hours a day working on the degree. Add this to the requirements of your job and you'll see why studying part time is, as my supervisor says, an exceptionally hard way of doing things.
There's very very little of what I learnt at university that I can directly apply in my job. IMHO universities teach more base theory than practical stuff for day-to-day job. The basic theory is good to know, but is not essential. The other thing universities teach (in theory) is how to learn and how to research.
Cory Ellingson (3/30/2008)
I feel like the green guy because these guys seem to understand many more "area's" of SQL server - some I didn't not really think was part of being a SQL DBA. Perhaps, it is more that - I was more an admin, I kept the box running and DB's backed up. I want to know get more into the nuts and bolts, such as 'WHY is the optimizer picking this plan?', or 'WHY is this proc using CXWait's?' maybe get more into modeling, DB design, BI, etc.
I can recommend some good books and good blogs. I doubt there's a university out there that will teach that kinda thing. There's a few SQL-specific training companies that may do courses that would interest you. Solid Quality Learning immediately comes to mind.
Maybe have a word with them about they way you're feeling. It could be they're not intending to make you feel inadequate. Maybe a word with your boss (if he's the reasonable type) about those 'real dba' comments....
Maybe I am feeling I need to, before these guys came on board, I over heard a developer say to his boss 'When we get a real dba...'.
:angry: And what exactly do they consider a 'real' dba?
In my experience, developers have a fairly low opinion of anyone in a DBA role, at least until the pawpaw hits the fan. I'd just ignore them personally.
Before you make any long-term decision, sit back and look at why you want to do a degree now. Make sure the expected rewards outweigh the commitment and sacrifice required.
Books:
Guru's guide to SQL Server Architecture and Internals, by Ken Henderson
Inside SLQ Server 2005 series (4 books), by Kalen Delaney, Itzik Ben-Gan and others
SQL Server 2005: Practical Troubleshooting, edited by Ken Henderson
Blogs:
Bob Beauchemin's Blog: http://www.sqlskills.com/blogs/bobb
Craig Freedman's WebLog: http://blogs.msdn.com/craigfr/default.aspx
Kalen Delaney: http://sqlblog.com/blogs/kalen_delaney/
Kimberly Tripp: http://www.sqlskills.com/blogs/kimberly/
SQLCAT: http://blogs.msdn.com/sqlcat/default.aspx
Paul Randal: http://www.sqlskills.com/blogs/paul/
PSS SQL Server Engineers: http://blogs.msdn.com/psssql/default.aspx
SQL Server Query Processing Team: http://blogs.msdn.com/sqlqueryprocessing/default.aspx
You're welcome to mail me if you want any more info about what it's like studying part-time.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 30, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Thanks everyone! This really helped! I will begin looking into all that today!
-- Cory
March 30, 2008 at 3:17 pm
If you're starting out, I think a BS/BA helps. It shows you can complete a long project and get work done. Doesn't help you to learn SQL Server, and no matter what the degree is in, doesn't prove you can do the job.
You get the same type of experience if you get through 4 years of the military with some specialty, or just working.
At this point, I think the guys above have shown some good advice and direction. If you want the degree, go for it, but I'm not sure it will help you get the next job. 10 years of experience and a good interview will do that.
College is about learning to learn. It's not about teaching you specifically about your major. You get some knowledge there, but it's general, well-rounded knowledge, not specific, why does a SQL Server plan get chosen. To get that you need to spend time learning that stuff.
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March 31, 2008 at 3:39 am
Hi Cory,
I'm just adding to what has already been said, but here goes...
Me and a friend where in college (in the UK, equivalent to high school in the US?), and we both loved programming. I didn't take any IT related courses (except for a night class which i did out of interest), but I did take Mathematics, Further Mathematics, Physics, etc...
My friend went on to get a degree, whereas I went into work. Now he can't get a job (or all the offers he gets are low paid) whereas I am at senior developer level, doing DB design, architecture, etc... all through experience and hard work!
I firmly believe in learning what you need to learn, and if you don't know either buy a book or look it up (SSC/NG/MSDN/etc)... it worked for me!
By this I'm not saying that degrees are worhless - but I firmply believe in an industry as complex as ours experience and common sense are worth a lot more.
All the best!
SAM
March 31, 2008 at 6:01 am
Sam's example is not an exception, either. I've heard the same story more than once.
Also, Sam is spot on about "hard work" and "common sense". There are a lot of people who have cruddy work ethics and common sense is not all that common.
--Jeff Moden
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