January 11, 2019 at 5:44 pm
Eric M Russell - Friday, January 11, 2019 3:03 PMdrew.allen - Friday, January 11, 2019 2:20 PMRod at work - Friday, January 11, 2019 1:17 PMI agree with you, Eric. However, I'd like to point out that filtering for "SQL Server" is just manually doing what an AI would likely do.I once got an email about a job as a waiter, because they had filtered on "Server" and found my resume which mentioned "SQL Server."
DrewI wonder how many Starbucks baristas have been offered a job as a web developer, because they're resume mentioned "Java beans", "Espresso", and "cookies"?
I'll bet more than a handful. :unsure:
I'm getting old. I hope an adult diaper company tries to hire me because I always say "It Depends" which now has two meanings for me. 😀
--Jeff Moden
January 12, 2019 at 6:24 am
Eric M Russell - Friday, January 11, 2019 3:03 PMI wonder how many Starbucks baristas have been offered a job as a web developer, because they're resume mentioned "Java beans", "Espresso", and "cookies"?
I'll bet more than a handful. :unsure:
Well, that would likely be incorrect. The machine learning algorithms behind the AI would likely be comparing your resume to a series of profiles that were also put together by other machine learning algorithms that they consider good or even possibly bad candidates. If you imagine a resume like a picture, which is made up of pixels, they would likely try to match your picture as close to the picture they want. While you may assume it's keywords they are filtering for, it may be a combination of things. I mean, getting a resume in a body of a email is lower quality than a well done Microsoft Word document. Same is true how one may word a job description versus someone else. While you may not have worded it, what you chose to pick for the wording may come into play too. Grammar, structure, keywords, spacing, pattern matching, experience, etc may all come into play when trying to build that profile of who you are versus others.
I'm not trying to say that's how they all do it, but there is much more to analyzing a piece of document than just filtering for keywords like, "SQL Server" or something. The ML component is likely building those profiles just like they may do for cancer patients and then the AI is trying to figure out the best treatment plan with either yes we can treat you or no, we cannot treat you here.
January 12, 2019 at 7:21 am
Jeff Moden - Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:54 PMtype your messageHow about knowledge then? ;).
Well, if companies had depended on AI when I was starting out, I'd have never gotten into IT. I had an AB in Sociology with the hours but not the degree for Masters level. I had never even seen a computer before I visited a friend, Bob Maple at Bendix Corp Brake and Steering Division where they ran an IBM mainframe. At that point, I didn't even HAVE a resume to submit. I had been a house parent at a halfway house for delinquents, and then a credit manager. My friend gave me some sort of quick five-minute logic test that he had, and two days later I got a call from their 'personnel' department, offering me a 69% salary increase to come and LEARN on the job. I don't think anyone could write the logic that would have justified that job offer. No way AI could look at the facts and make it a good decision. But it worked and began a 42 year career.
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
January 13, 2019 at 12:45 am
skeleton567 - Saturday, January 12, 2019 7:20 AMWell, if companies had depended on AI when I was starting out, I'd have never gotten into IT. I had an AB in Sociology with the hours but not the degree for Masters level. I had never even seen a computer before I visited a friend, Bob Maple at Bendix Corp Brake and Steering Division where they ran an IBM mainframe. At that point, I didn't even HAVE a resume to submit. I had been a house parent at a halfway house for delinquents, and then a credit manager. My friend gave me some sort of quick five-minute logic test that he had, and two days later I got a call from their 'personnel' department, offering me a 69% salary increase to come and LEARN on the job. I don't think anyone could write the logic that would have justified that job offer. No way AI could look at the facts and make it a good decision. But it worked and began a 42 year career.
Perfect example and that's exactly the point I was trying to make.
--Jeff Moden
January 14, 2019 at 6:25 am
Jeff Moden - Sunday, January 13, 2019 12:45 AMPerfect example and that's exactly the point I was trying to make.
I have a different opinion on that one. I don't doubt his luck getting a job where they had to teach him everything, but jobs that will teach you computer 101 in the hopes that you'll be a good employee some time down the road are probably not all that common. I'm wondering how I would do if I picked 10 rando's off the street and tried to turn them into productive IT workers. Sure, I'm betting there is a non zero chance of finding someone with aptitude, but there is also still a really big training overhead.
It would be interesting to query how many HR departments or even IT departments would hire someone randomly in the off chance that they were teachable, and find that method preferable to someone with some experience or education.
January 14, 2019 at 7:42 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 - Monday, January 14, 2019 6:25 AMI have a different opinion on that one. I don't doubt his luck getting a job where they had to teach him everything, but jobs that will teach you computer 101 in the hopes that you'll be a good employee some time down the road are probably not all that common. I'm wondering how I would do if I picked 10 rando's off the street and tried to turn them into productive IT workers. Sure, I'm betting there is a non zero chance of finding someone with aptitude, but there is also still a really big training overhead.It would be interesting to query how many HR departments or even IT departments would hire someone randomly in the off chance that they were teachable, and find that method preferable to someone with some experience or education.
Well, there was also the thing that I was an employee who took the old IBM manuals home at night and laid in bed studying them, because in those days there were no home PCs or internet or any of the things you younger folks have to help you. Degrees in IT were only even available in a few places in the country. I did participate in one in-house class of about three days in a new capability they had acquired.
Beginning that position, I set a goal of doubling my salary in three years. It took me an actual three years and 90 days to accomplish that.
So no, I don't think it was just luck, as you suggest.
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
January 14, 2019 at 8:12 am
skeleton567 - Monday, January 14, 2019 7:42 AMWell, there was also the thing that I was an employee who took the old IBM manuals home at night and laid in bed studying them, because in those days there were no home PCs or internet or any of the things you younger folks have to help you. Degrees in IT were only even available in a few places in the country. I did participate in one in-house class of about three days in a new capability they had acquired.Beginning that position, I set a goal of doubling my salary in three years. It took me an actual three years and 90 days to accomplish that.
So no, I don't think it was just luck, as you suggest.
Of course you don't think its luck. We all want to think we "raise ourselves up by our bootstraps". And I'm sure that once you got the opportunity you ran with it, because as you said you had a successful career once a path was given that allowed you to get trained AND receive a paycheck. You had to be motivated for this training to take hold right? I'm not downplaying what you DID with the opportunity, but are we really thinking that this the path HR needs to take in todays IT? Hey, if you think that's the path forward for today's industry, then fair enough! I'm just pondering the practicality of it when applied to today's marketplace that's all.
January 14, 2019 at 3:04 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 - Monday, January 14, 2019 8:12 AMOf course you don't think its luck. We all want to think we "raise ourselves up by our bootstraps". And I'm sure that once you got the opportunity you ran with it, because as you said you had a successful career once a path was given that allowed you to get trained AND receive a paycheck. You had to be motivated for this training to take hold right? I'm not downplaying what you DID with the opportunity, but are we really thinking that this the path HR needs to take in todays IT? Hey, if you think that's the path forward for today's industry, then fair enough! I'm just pondering the practicality of it when applied to today's marketplace that's all.
Well, my point is that if I had depended on AI, I would never have gotten my first position. And as far as luck, I would hope it is more than that, such as the hiring manager's intuition and skills in human evaluation, and my skills in interviewing and learning.
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
January 14, 2019 at 3:44 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 - Monday, January 14, 2019 6:25 AMI have a different opinion on that one. I don't doubt his luck getting a job where they had to teach him everything, but jobs that will teach you computer 101 in the hopes that you'll be a good employee some time down the road are probably not all that common. I'm wondering how I would do if I picked 10 rando's off the street and tried to turn them into productive IT workers. Sure, I'm betting there is a non zero chance of finding someone with aptitude, but there is also still a really big training overhead.It would be interesting to query how many HR departments or even IT departments would hire someone randomly in the off chance that they were teachable, and find that method preferable to someone with some experience or education.
It wasn't quite random, though. He had a friend that worked at the company that got him some sort of logic test. I don't know what their motivation for hiring a complete newbie was but it wasn't quite as random as it seems. Perhaps it was because, way back then (42 years ago), there wasn't a whole lot of talent out there and companies were a lot more willing to train.
Still, that kind of "networking" is much more effective than AI, which seems to not be working so well when it comes to which resumes to collect and which to shred.
I do agree that pulling someone random from the street to train probably wouldn't work unless the company got lucky. It would be an interesting experiment because of the fact that a lot of DBAs became DBAs accidently. Of course, most such folks already had some insight into computers.
--Jeff Moden
January 15, 2019 at 6:47 am
Jeff Moden - Monday, January 14, 2019 3:44 PMIt wasn't quite random, though. He had a friend that worked at the company that got him some sort of logic test. I don't know what their motivation for hiring a complete newbie was but it wasn't quite as random as it seems. Perhaps it was because, way back then (42 years ago), there wasn't a whole lot of talent out there and companies were a lot more willing to train.
Still, that kind of "networking" is much more effective than AI, which seems to not be working so well when it comes to which resumes to collect and which to shred.
I do agree that pulling someone random from the street to train probably wouldn't work unless the company got lucky. It would be an interesting experiment because of the fact that a lot of DBAs became DBAs accidently. Of course, most such folks already had some insight into computers.
IBM is currently doing similar. They just recruited a bunch of non-tech people and training them in hopes to land a full-time gig with the company. Next, I hear they are going to recruit 2,000 vets to do similar being the program is becoming such a good success after training.
January 15, 2019 at 7:45 am
xsevensinzx - Tuesday, January 15, 2019 6:47 AMIBM is currently doing similar. They just recruited a bunch of non-tech people and training them in hopes to land a full-time gig with the company. Next, I hear they are going to recruit 2,000 vets to do similar being the program is becoming such a good success after training.
Wow, I am impressed with IBM for taking action for our vets. I'm not one myself, but I support them whole-heartedly. I haven't really had anything to do with IBM since 1976 when I moved the company I worked for off their platform to another mainframe vendor. I always thought it was ironic that they seemed to sort of drop the ball on the whole PC area.
When you stop to reflect, I guess the whole Microsoft phenomenon did begin with a bunch of pretty inexperienced folks, and look at what they accomplished.
I would say in favor of starting out new people that you don't have to deal with all the 'history' that those with experience can bring to a new job. Over the years I was privileged to help several 'newbies' in their first or early positions, with varying degrees of training, and my experience was that with one exception they were good learners and easier to 'break in' than other with different degrees of experience.
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
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