January 16, 2013 at 2:14 pm
Eoin_BI (1/15/2013)
To your main theme, check this link for the best way (scientifically tested) to learn. (Flash Cards)
Thanks for the link. Interesting article. I have also found that taking notes is a big help even if I don't look back at them. Somehow writing out something helps put it into my brain.
January 17, 2013 at 7:36 am
I don't care if they hire someone who crammed for the interview, came up through the ranks or have been a DBA for 20 years. I wish managers would hire people who know how to get along with other people. You can teach them SQL. Their parents had to teach them how to be nice, and for some it's too late.
January 17, 2013 at 8:58 am
The interview I had for my current job was 3 part, technical phone then face to face technical / personal along with on line testing and lastly panel.
At each stage there was a hidden agenda so that the full nature of the interview was never revealed before hand. Therefore you would have to cram at least twice and it may not be needed.
Might sound a bit cloak and dagger but my company has tested it over many years and it doesn't often fail them.
-------------------------------Posting Data Etiquette - Jeff Moden [/url]Smart way to ask a question
There are naive questions, tedious questions, ill-phrased questions, questions put after inadequate self-criticism. But every question is a cry to understand (the world). There is no such thing as a dumb question. ― Carl Sagan
I would never join a club that would allow me as a member - Groucho Marx
January 17, 2013 at 10:09 am
I read through this topic, and it's becoming very personal for me...
Later today I have a short phone screen, tomorrow an over-the-phone tech screen for a new position.
I'm actually trying hard to NOT cram for this. After all, I'd rather be hired for what I know now, than what I managed to cram in and likely will forget 5 minutes after I hang up the phone...
Jason
January 17, 2013 at 10:10 am
lewandot (1/17/2013)
I don't care if they hire someone who crammed for the interview, came up through the ranks or have been a DBA for 20 years. I wish managers would hire people who know how to get along with other people. You can teach them SQL. Their parents had to teach them how to be nice, and for some it's too late.
The nicest person in the world doesn't mean anything if they don't have the necessary skills needed to get your production databases operational in an off hours emergency situation, period. Very skilled DBA's are not paid to win a personality contest, bottom line. They are paid to keep their company's very valuable muilt-million dollar databases online and accessible 24/7 to the user community, bottom line. Everything else is secondary, as my past CIO used to say. Playing nice is a good thing to want, but it is not at the top of most CIO's list. Skill-set and working under pressure is. As far as teaching people SQL. Most DBA's I know don't have time for that, that is why they are hiring extra help to begin with. If being nice is at the top of your list maybe working in a flower shop might suit you better. In the fast paced IT world of today, companies are looking for particular skillsets and people that can produce under pressure and hit the ground running.. Most industrial IT shops today that I know of are not looking to pay to teach people SQL . 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
January 17, 2013 at 10:27 am
TravisDBA (1/17/2013)
lewandot (1/17/2013)
I don't care if they hire someone who crammed for the interview, came up through the ranks or have been a DBA for 20 years. I wish managers would hire people who know how to get along with other people. You can teach them SQL. Their parents had to teach them how to be nice, and for some it's too late.The nicest person in the world doesn't mean anything if they don't have the necessary skills needed to get your production databases operational in an off hours emergency situation, period. Very skilled DBA's are not paid to win a personality contest, bottom line. They are paid to keep their company's very valuable muilt-million dollar databases online and accessible 24/7 to the user community, bottom line. Everything else is secondary, as my past CIO used to say. Playing nice is a good thing to want, but it is not at the top of most CIO's list. Skill-set and working under pressure is. As far as teaching people SQL. Most DBA's I know don't have time for that, that is why they are hiring extra help to begin with. If being nice is at the top of your list maybe working in a flower shop might suit you better. In the fast paced IT world of today, companies are looking for particular skillsets and people that can produce under pressure and hit the ground running.. Most industrial IT shops today that I know of are not looking to pay to teach people SQL . 😀
.....having said that most companies are looking for soft skills as well and won't hire (permanent) people they don't think will fit in with the current team. Unless you are a one man shop its a lot easier to get things done if you haven't p*ssed everyone else off. 🙂
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January 17, 2013 at 10:34 am
george sibbald (1/17/2013) Unless you are a one man shop its a lot easier to get things done if you haven't p*ssed everyone else off. 🙂
There is a flip side to that coin you are not considering here. If you can't get things done in a pressure situation your jovial personaiity doesn't matter to most managers I know of. They are not paying you to be nice, they are paying you to produce and keep their production databases online and operational 24/7, bottom line. Not everyone out there can do that. There are a lot of nice people in the world, I know many of them, but I wouldn't let them touch my own personal laptop at home, let alone my production databases at work!!! Nice is a good thing to want, but like I said it is usually not at the top of the list of most managers I know of today.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
January 18, 2013 at 2:09 am
TravisDBA (1/17/2013)
lewandot (1/17/2013)
I don't care if they hire someone who crammed for the interview, came up through the ranks or have been a DBA for 20 years. I wish managers would hire people who know how to get along with other people. You can teach them SQL. Their parents had to teach them how to be nice, and for some it's too late.The nicest person in the world doesn't mean anything if they don't have the necessary skills needed to get your production databases operational in an off hours emergency situation, period. Very skilled DBA's are not paid to win a personality contest, bottom line. They are paid to keep their company's very valuable muilt-million dollar databases online and accessible 24/7 to the user community, bottom line. Everything else is secondary, as my past CIO used to say. Playing nice is a good thing to want, but it is not at the top of most CIO's list. Skill-set and working under pressure is. As far as teaching people SQL. Most DBA's I know don't have time for that, that is why they are hiring extra help to begin with. If being nice is at the top of your list maybe working in a flower shop might suit you better. In the fast paced IT world of today, companies are looking for particular skillsets and people that can produce under pressure and hit the ground running.. Most industrial IT shops today that I know of are not looking to pay to teach people SQL . 😀
Yes and no, on both sides.
The nicest person in the world doesn't mean anything if they don't have the necessary skills needed to get your production databases operational in an off hours emergency situation, period ability to learn the necessary skills. Skills can be taught, but only if the person has basic ability. Obviously, taking someone on who has potential and then teaching them costs money and takes time. Fundamentally, though, the potential has to be there to think like a DBA or the investment will be a waste.
On the flip side, high pressure out of hours emergency situations occur relatively infrequently (at least, one would hope so, or there's a bigger problem at work here). The bread and butter work of backing up, maintaining, tuning and improving databases is a daily team effort. If you hire someone with glittering skills who doesn't fit in with the team, you'll impact the team's performance adversely. The CIO may well only care about results, but not just results in an emergency.
Semper in excretia, sumus solum profundum variat
January 18, 2013 at 9:48 am
majorbloodnock (1/18/2013)
. Skills can be taught, but only if the person has basic ability. Obviously, taking someone on who has potential and then teaching them costs money and takes time. Fundamentally, though, the potential has to be there to think like a DBA or the investment will be a waste.
On the flip side, high pressure out of hours emergency situations occur relatively infrequently (at least, one would hope so, or there's a bigger problem at work here). The bread and butter work of backing up, maintaining, tuning and improving databases is a daily team effort. If you hire someone with glittering skills who doesn't fit in with the team, you'll impact the team's performance adversely. The CIO may well only care about results, but not just results in an emergency.
Yes, skills can be taught but many DBA's simply don't have the time for that, that is why they are hiring an extra person in the first place. I need a guy/gal that can hit the ground running and get our objectives and servers covered immediately, not sometime next year. I do not need to pay someone that it going to possibly take me months to get up to speed. There is not enough time for that in a fast paced shop.
Also, on the flip side of that, low pressure 9-5 situations ONLY occur infrequently based on the shop you are in. Most IT shops of today are very high paced, high-pressure, and need 24/7 coverage.
If I am on an airplane it does not matter to me that the pilot is the nicest guy on the plane.
If I am laying on an operating table it does not matter to me if the surgeon is the most jovial guy in there.
What matters to me is their expertise and their experience to perform under pressure when it really counts. I approach looking for an experienced DBA the same way. I am not going to turn a company multi-million dollar revenue database over to a "nice guy" that I have to teach SQL to. Sorry, but as long as I'm ultimately responsible for the production databases, my priorities are different in who I decide to hire. I would rather one of my DBA's piss off a developer because he won't let her get what she wants when she wants it, than to have him cave in and end up screwing up a database trying to be a nice guy to everyone.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
January 18, 2013 at 10:04 am
might be getting bogged down in the term 'nice' here. I don't think they have to be nice either and DBAs should certainly never be pushovers, but they have to be team players, approachable and helpful whilst still managing expectations.
Save being unpleasant for those deserving of it.
Back on topic, as for cramming, it will only get you so far if you don't have the experience to back it up, but the interview would have to be more in depth than checking knowledge of syntax to find people out.
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January 18, 2013 at 10:18 am
george sibbald (1/18/2013)
I don't think they have to be nice either and DBAs should certainly never be pushovers, but they have to be team players, approachable and helpful whilst still managing expectations.
I absolutely agree George, and DBA's should be team players, but they are also the caretakers for the million dollar production databases as well and many times the production databases access, integrity, and safekeeping takes precedence. That's just the way it is. It's not the teams neck or job that's on the line when a production database has been screwed up because the DBA was trying to accomodate everyone. It's the DBA's ultimate responsibility. The buck stops with him/her many times. They have incredible responsibility on their shoulders and people need to be aware of that. A mentor once told me, "Travis you can be a great DBA and you can be a cooperative team player too, but you will find many times you can't always be both at the same time." Man, was he ever right..:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
January 18, 2013 at 10:29 am
I'd agree with that, which is why I put in the caveat of managing expectations. There are definitely times you have to lay down the law and to hell with who gets upset. I'd start off trying to do it 'nicely' but if someone won't accept it, well................
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January 18, 2013 at 2:35 pm
lewandot (1/17/2013)
You can teach them SQL.
I'm finding that to be less and less true. Some people will never actually get it.
--Jeff Moden
January 21, 2013 at 2:08 am
TravisDBA (1/18/2013)
majorbloodnock (1/18/2013)
Skills can be taught, but only if the person has basic ability. Obviously, taking someone on who has potential and then teaching them costs money and takes time. Fundamentally, though, the potential has to be there to think like a DBA or the investment will be a waste.On the flip side, high pressure out of hours emergency situations occur relatively infrequently (at least, one would hope so, or there's a bigger problem at work here). The bread and butter work of backing up, maintaining, tuning and improving databases is a daily team effort. If you hire someone with glittering skills who doesn't fit in with the team, you'll impact the team's performance adversely. The CIO may well only care about results, but not just results in an emergency.
Yes, skills can be taught but many DBA's simply don't have the time for that, that is why they are hiring an extra person in the first place. I need a guy/gal that can hit the ground running and get our objectives and servers covered immediately, not sometime next year. I do not need to pay someone that it going to possibly take me months to get up to speed. There is not enough time for that in a fast paced shop.
It's not the DBA who needs to make time, it's the company. If a company takes someone on knowing training is necessary, they have to make both the training and the time available. If they can't, they shouldn't take the person on.
Also, on the flip side of that, low pressure 9-5 situations ONLY occur infrequently based on the shop you are in. Most IT shops of today are very high paced, high-pressure, and need 24/7 coverage.
Who's talking about low pressure? I was talking about emergency situations, and they should occur infrequently whether the IT department is 9 to 5 or 24/7. If that's not the case, there's a bigger issue going on than just one DBA.
If I am on an airplane it does not matter to me that the pilot is the nicest guy on the plane.
If I am laying on an operating table it does not matter to me if the surgeon is the most jovial guy in there.
If I'm on an aeroplane, I want the pilot and copilot to work together well as a team. There are plenty of documented instances of crashes that could have been avoided if this had happened. What I don't want is a brilliant solo pilot trying to go it alone.
If I'm having an operation, I want the surgeons, theatre matron, nurses, anaesthetist and so on to work together as a team. I want them concentrating on their jobs and on me, not on their latest spat with a brilliant medic who can't fit in.
What matters to me is their expertise and their experience to perform under pressure when it really counts. I approach looking for an experienced DBA the same way. I am not going to turn a company multi-million dollar revenue database over to a "nice guy" that I have to teach SQL to.
When in doubt, extrapolate to extremes.....
No-one suggested giving a senior position to someone with no prior experience, nice or otherwise. However, if you only hire people with all the necessary experience, they won't be challenged in the role and will leave pretty soon after. Almost all the time you need to hire someone who's up to the job, but where the job represents a bit of a step up for them. And that means expecting to have to extend their skills. As I said before, as long as the basic ability is there, skills can be taught, but attitude cannot.
Sorry, but as long as I'm ultimately responsible for the production databases, my priorities are different in who I decide to hire. I would rather one of my DBA's piss off a developer because he won't let her get what she wants when she wants it, than to have him cave in and end up screwing up a database trying to be a nice guy to everyone.:-D
I'd expect a DBA to know how to say no nicely. If they have to get more direct, so be it, but there's no need for them to do so rudely. If they do so reasonably and the other party still gets annoyed, it's not the DBA who's being disruptive. Oh, and if the DBA is inclined to cave in to appease, that's a different attitude problem. As I said before, if the ability is there, you can teach skills, but you can't teach the right attitude.
If your company is happy with your hiring decisions, then keep doing it the way you do. However, unless you experience a far higher staff turnover than your competitors, I suspect your choices take attitude into account far more than either you're letting on or you realise.
Semper in excretia, sumus solum profundum variat
January 21, 2013 at 2:48 am
Jeff Moden (1/18/2013)
lewandot (1/17/2013)
You can teach them SQL.I'm finding that to be less and less true. Some people will never actually get it.
Unfortunately, it appears to be true to programming in general. Or rather you can get "them" to produce the lines of code that may work but it is far from professional systems development. It is harder do get people who can do things "right" (or just well).
SQL is just prevalent here because it is the contextual tip of the iceberg.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
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