January 23, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Hi all.
I do have already a CompTIA A+ Certificate, and in May of 2009, I will have a diploma of an "Associate of Applied Sience in Computer Information Systems with a concentration in Database Management".
Now I'm preparing myself for the 70-432 exam, and I almost ready to go to Certification Center (just need to pay off $125).
My questions is.
1. Do I really have any chance to find a job in this country nowadays as a DBA with my A+ cert and a diploma but without any formal experience? (I'm a "domestic" computer/programming fan since MS-DOS 5.0 time, but use to work always in the completely different fields and now I'm unemployed)
2. Will be helpful for me to have a 70-432 certification paper in this time, or it will only waste my time and money?
Thank you, all.
January 23, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Anything’s possible, but a DBA job is usually for someone with significant industry experience as a developer, administrator, or both, and usually a BS\BA degree. It’s more of a mid career job, rather than a starter IT job.
You might be able to do a great job of selling your strong points in an interview, but we'd have to be talkin' about one charming sales job.
January 23, 2009 at 4:19 pm
the certification won't harm as it shows a good attitude and willingness to learn, but in IT experience counts for a whole lot more.
go for it, but you may have to accept a different role and work toward DBA. I've often seen mentioned that gaining experience via voluntary work is a good way to get that elusive experience. I would certainly be impressed by that in an interview.
Good luck.
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January 23, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (1/23/2009)
Anything’s possible, but a DBA job is usually for someone ... with usually a BS\BA degree
hmm... some MVP on microsoft.com said me today, that he knows possibly thousands of DBAs who doesn't have any degrees at all or even certificates...
but we'd have to be talkin' about one charming sales job.
😀
Thanks, but for last 10 years I was a salesman, (I have another degree in business) and I don't want to be it anymore.
Trust me, I know so many unemployed salesmen, that you maybe don't know DBAs..:)
..anyway. thank you, sir, for your answer. I appreciate it...
..I see, it's really hard to step in some new field without loss...:(
P.S. Could you remind me, what are BS/BAs studying in the school about database management, that AAS did not or could not via the certification.
January 23, 2009 at 7:58 pm
george sibbald (1/23/2009)
the certification won't harm as it shows a good attitude and willingness to learn, but in IT experience counts for a whole lot more.
That is why I'm here and asking my dumb questions...:)
Everybody around speaks about "IT experience much more important than degrees or certificates"...
Well, I want to know what all these schools exists for?...
Why we waste our time and money for all these certificates and diplomas if they only cost a price of paper which they were printed on?
go for it, but you may have to accept a different role and work toward DBA.
Yeah, I'm ready to go and accept any role in IT. But, I do expect that I will have at less same salary with somebody next to me, who doesn't hold papers like mine and who is in comparable knowledge with me. Who get to his or her knowledge in IT via "experience", but I've got mine via three years of schooling.
I don't care about his or her "seniority", I do care about "knowledge"...
You know what I mean?
Is seniority in IT counts more than knowledge?
I've often seen mentioned that gaining experience via voluntary work is a good way to get that elusive experience. I would certainly be impressed by that in an interview.
The voluntary job is a nice deal, but it is not acceptable for everyone.
I, for example, is responsible for feeding of my four children.
Good luck.
Thank you very much for your answer.
January 23, 2009 at 8:20 pm
I think you have got a decent shot. I can only speak for the Minneapolis market but their are new Sql Server jobs everyday on Craigslist and Monster. The demand is greater than the supply so that helps.
Get your certification, network at local PASS chapter and look for contracting gigs to get some experience. A junior Sql position in MN is going to pay at least 50K and 7.2% (unemployment rate) of the workforce would take that. 😀
January 23, 2009 at 8:37 pm
David O (1/23/2009)
I think you have got a decent shot. I can only speak for the Minneapolis market but their are new Sql Server jobs everyday on Craigslist and Monster. The demand is greater than the supply so that helps.Get your certification, network at local PASS chapter and look for contracting gigs to get some experience. A junior Sql position in MN is going to pay at least 50K and 7.2% (unemployment rate) of the workforce would take that. 😀
Thank you, David.
You made my evening! I love Minnesota, and I love Minneapolis! I love North, and I love really cold winters which are not as in our freaky Southern Indiana :D:D:D
January 23, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Experience counts more than training, in many cases, because so many people get degrees/certs, but don't actually know anything of any value. Not saying that's true in your case, just that it's true too often to trust certs/degrees very much.
I had a co-worker at one point who was three months away from a bachelor's in computer science, and I had to teach her how to use Ctrl-Alt-Del. She couldn't even install Windows software, nor configure user-options in Internet Explorer, but she was within spitting distance of a degree on the subject. Unfortunately, that kind of thing is far too common.
There are plenty of people who get degrees and certs, in any field, not just computers, who really learn the subject, really "get it", and can actually do what their papers say they can. The problem is, there are also plenty who have the papers, but who can't do the job at all.
On the other hand, it's pretty rare to find someone who's been a DBA for ten years, who doesn't know a few slick tricks with select and so on. With or without certs.
If you actually know your business, know your way around a database, then what you'll find is that certs will help get your resume seen. The immediate goal becomes, get interviews.
You'll be challenged on your tech knowledge. You'll be asked silly questions like, "what's a cartesian product?", or "what's a primary key?", and perhaps a few like, "how many tables does it take to build a many-to-many join?", or "what's third normal form and why does it matter?" You may be asked things like, "Suddenly you have a dozen users sending in help-desk calls, saying that web pages are crashing, and that the error messages are about deadlock victims in the database. Orders are being lost because of these errors, and money is on-the-line. The CIO, VP Sales, and IT Manager are at your desk, demanding an immediate solution, and you hear the CEO in the hallway, yelling and getting closer to your cube. What do you do?" (And if the answer is scream and jump out a window, you probably won't be hired.)
If you can get past the tech screening, then it'll be the usual for any job interview anywhere. "So, what do you consider your biggest weakness?" (Answer: "I sometimes work so hard I lose track of time and end up leaving late or missing lunch.") "Where do you see yourself in five years?" (Answer: "Working for this company, which is so awesome I want to work here till I have to retire.") And, as always, "How do you feel about being called late at night or over weekends?" (Answer: "Worrying about that is for people with lives! My work IS my life!")
So, if you have the certs to get past the HR resume forcefield, and you have the know-how to get past the tech screening, your chances of getting a job as a DBA or other IT position are probably pretty okay.
Experience only counts more because it's usually a more reliable measure. Knowledge, actual honest knowledge, is what really counts. No matter how it's gained.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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January 23, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Thank you.
It was very informative and balanced answer.
January 23, 2009 at 10:01 pm
I like G's answer. Certs don't mean much if you haven't at least played around with stuff on your own.
Another thought is Reporting Services is popular and but is relatively new so no one has 5 years of experience. Learning that end of the product could give you a competative advantage or a foot in door.
January 23, 2009 at 10:12 pm
seekwell_fan (1/23/2009)
Hi all.I do have already a CompTIA A+ Certificate, and in May of 2009, I will have a diploma of an "Associate of Applied Sience in Computer Information Systems with a concentration in Database Management".
Now I'm preparing myself for the 70-432 exam, and I almost ready to go to Certification Center (just need to pay off $125).
My questions is.
1. Do I really have any chance to find a job in this country nowadays as a DBA with my A+ cert and a diploma but without any formal experience? (I'm a "domestic" computer/programming fan since MS-DOS 5.0 time, but use to work always in the completely different fields and now I'm unemployed)
2. Will be helpful for me to have a 70-432 certification paper in this time, or it will only waste my time and money?
Thank you, all.
Ill give you my take on this. I was in a somewhat similar situation to yours last year. I got my Bachelors in CIS and I got laid off after a few months as an Analyst and I was stuck on unemployment because those 3 months were the only "tech" job experience I had really. I decided to buy a bunch of DBA material and prepare for the exam. So I essentially after a solid 5 months of doing countless hours of reading and using SQL Server 2005 and having no luck with trying to get DBA interviews I started to broaden my search a bit in the "tech" fields and was lucky enough to land a job as a Data Analyst in a data warehouse for a large corporation(100,000 employees). Granted its not a DBA job, but Im exposed to multiple databases and get to work in them every day and get exposed to what the DBAs do....or shall I say the Data Warehouse Administrators do...
The point is that knowledge is knowledge and being able to complete a certification is not a waste of time and money. The knowledge can be very useful to any areas that deal with databases which CAN lead you to a DBA job down the road. I spent $300 on various materials for SQL Server and never got the certification.....but the knowledge on databases that I gained from reading and practicing was enough to give me the confidence to land a decent job.
January 24, 2009 at 4:14 am
seekwell_fan (1/23/2009)
Hi all.I do have already a CompTIA A+ Certificate, and in May of 2009, I will have a diploma of an "Associate of Applied Sience in Computer Information Systems with a concentration in Database Management".
Now I'm preparing myself for the 70-432 exam, and I almost ready to go to Certification Center (just need to pay off $125).
My questions is.
1. Do I really have any chance to find a job in this country nowadays as a DBA with my A+ cert and a diploma but without any formal experience? (I'm a "domestic" computer/programming fan since MS-DOS 5.0 time, but use to work always in the completely different fields and now I'm unemployed)
2. Will be helpful for me to have a 70-432 certification paper in this time, or it will only waste my time and money?
Thank you, all.
Maybe you should start with searching for some Junior DBA positions, and get some MCITP certifications too.
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January 24, 2009 at 9:26 am
You want experience and something you can point to on a "beginners" resume? Spend the 50 to 60 bucks to buy a copy of the SQL Server Developer's Edition. Set it up on your home machine. Make a "test" database... and start answering questions on this forum. You will get more experience in a month or two than most folks get in a year on the job. And, you have the advantage of being able to point a potential employer to your work on this site.
It's not easy... it takes lot's of time. But you can't play the piano worth a hoot if you don't actually practice. 😉
--Jeff Moden
January 24, 2009 at 10:17 am
It really depends on what type of shop you are trying to get into, if you are looking to get into a large shop it may be difficult, junior level may already be lined up for in house candidates from the other infrastructure teams who have expressed an interest, and most larger\enterprise shops want mid to snr level folks who can hit the ground running.
Getting in a small shop is always good, in my experience anyway, because although its sink or swim you usually get lots of experience. The pay is no where near as good, again my own experience, but after a couple of years being the multiple hat guy, you are then able to get the better positions going forward.
My first SQL admin position after leaving college ended up with me doing desktop support, SQL admin and development, MS exchange admin, network admin and pretty much anything else in between. It was a small shop, ended up growing and growing, even though it was hard work and at the beginning feeling like a fraud because I was mainly learning on the job, it gave me four years of experience I could never have paid for.
Even if you end up doing volunteer\intern or a entry level position, it will get you some experience, and from there you build and build. You just hit the books at night after work, trawl all the forums, especially this one, and if you start adding value you keep getting asked to do some more advanced tasks and after a while it just clicks and you become a DBA.
Andrew
January 24, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Hi, guys!
Thank you all for your advises. I appreciated all of them
I can't answer to each of you, so I would like to answer only for some common ideas.
First, as I told you, I'm an experienced salesman. So, you should guess that I'm an experienced user of databases. That's true. I do know about Access, Oracle, and MS-SQL Server databases even more than some of IT_shop_help_desk_young_boys_contractors can imagine. I had a "Power User", a "Back Up operator" or similar to these permissions (roles) on all of those systems. So, I can install/create databases, create user accounts, setup security for them, create tables, setup relations and many other things in databases I can do which you probably think salesmen with two AS degrees don't, because "they can only use a calculator" :)...
I always have MS-Access and/or MS-SQL Server databases installed on my home computers and laptops since time of Access 97 and SQL Server 6.5. Now, on this PC, I have an Oracle Database 10g Express Edition and MS-SQL Server 2008 Developer Edition installed. I did not spend "50-60 backs" (as somebody suggests me here) on a SQL Server 2008 Developer, I've downloaded it for free because I'm registered student on a Microsoft Spark and registered Beta Tester for some others Microsoft's programs ;). So, I play with SQL Server 2008 since his Beta version.
So, I can write queries/code in PL-SQL, T-SQL, LINQ, and VB.
I can build any server or workstation from scratch and set it on any network, and I can install and tune up ANY Microsoft Operation System or Server.
And many others things I can do as easy as you, guys.
So, guys, you should not think, that only an IT shop gives a knowledge and/or an experience. Not at all. Indeed, I personally, know many guys who works in IT shops, but who are such a boneheaded, that I sometimes feel sad about the future of IT industry in this country.
Thank you all again. I think we can close this discussion.
Have you a good day!
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