April 16, 2018 at 7:32 am
Jeffrey Irish - Monday, April 16, 2018 6:37 AMAdvice to those who are looking for an instant answer to IT questions: Be sure to spend some time really reading what someone took the time to post out in the blogosphere or forums, you may just learn something other than what you intended to fix in the firs place.
Excellent advice. Want the bad news? Even if people read my little rant, they won't read these comments.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
April 16, 2018 at 7:35 am
Grant Fritchey - Monday, April 16, 2018 7:32 AMJeffrey Irish - Monday, April 16, 2018 6:37 AMAdvice to those who are looking for an instant answer to IT questions: Be sure to spend some time really reading what someone took the time to post out in the blogosphere or forums, you may just learn something other than what you intended to fix in the firs place.Excellent advice. Want the bad news? Even if people read my little rant, they won't read these comments.
Too right, sir. Maybe someone will read it, someday...
Regards, Irish
April 16, 2018 at 7:35 am
David.Poole - Monday, April 16, 2018 6:37 AMYou can't really post anything in a forum that says "Have you considered an alternative career?" without appearing bad either yourself or making the forum look bad. Those sorts of conversations can only really take place one-to-one.
I have, to my shame, done this once or twice after posting multiple explanations to people in a single thread. The frustration can run in both directions at times.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
April 16, 2018 at 7:37 am
Grant Fritchey - Monday, April 16, 2018 7:30 AMBeatrix Kiddo - Monday, April 16, 2018 5:41 AMThese are all good points. What bugs me most of all is when people here go out of their way to be helpful, giving their time and expertise freely, and don't even get a thank you. There seems to be a link between a high level of desperation and being less likely to say thank you, too.Thanks for all you do. I see your answers a lot and skip the question because you're already on top of it. If no one else says it, thanks.
Oh gosh, I didn't mean me. I'm a rank amateur! There are so many generous (and patient!) experts here that if I started trying to name them all I'd only leave somebody out, but we all know who they are.
(Very kind of you to say so though.)
April 16, 2018 at 7:46 am
Grant Fritchey - Monday, April 16, 2018 7:32 AMJeffrey Irish - Monday, April 16, 2018 6:37 AMAdvice to those who are looking for an instant answer to IT questions: Be sure to spend some time really reading what someone took the time to post out in the blogosphere or forums, you may just learn something other than what you intended to fix in the firs place.Excellent advice. Want the bad news? Even if people read my little rant, they won't read these comments.
People aren't really as bad as you make them out to be, because people are people and there's really nothing new under the sun. As has been mentioned, even Microsoft often doesn't do T-SQL very well. The industry just needs more skills than are available because there's a lot to know about programming correctly with todays tools and honestly the only way the situation will improve is with better tools.
T-SQL is like a horse. We got better efficiencies by making automobiles. I don't mind using T-SQL, I'm starting to get a handle on the pitfalls but SQL is very primitive, and I suspect the NoSQL craze is just one of the many efforts in trying to figure out a successor. Another effort seems to be ORM, like trying to use SQL as an intermediate language, but often the object relational mismatch hoses things.
People are hard to change, it takes a long time for a species to evolve, but programming tools evolve much quicker. Maybe if the industry quit trying to be all appy appity app they could maybe do some research into the fundamental issues and possible solutions that don't involve breeding a better human. But the industry is also run by humans so theres that 🙂
April 16, 2018 at 7:49 am
Thank you, Grant! As someone who feels he never knows enough about database administration, I really appreciate your editorial. You experts on these forums show a tremendous amount of patience with those people who are desperate, in over their heads, etc. - some of them even reply in rude and ungrateful ways which I find amazing given that they are the ones asking for help.
When asking for help on SQL Server Central, I have always tried to avoid seeming like that person who wants the "go faster" button. Nevertheless, I can sympathize with a lot of the people who do, if only because I know they are still people who need help.
My suggestion based on thinking over what you wrote in your editorial is that perhaps registration for help forums like this one should have a "waiting room" with a list of general "have you tried..." advice for common problems. I thought for a moment that this page could be mandatory before allowing the person to post to the main forums, but upon further reflection, that sounds a bit draconian and also infantilizing - presumably they are grown-ups and know that they should try the "have you tried..." advice from more experienced professionals. Maybe a warning would suffice that the person should not expect much useful help if they skip the initial advice.
Thanks a gain.
-webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
April 16, 2018 at 8:01 am
The other day while browsing through the forums on JustAnswer, looking to diagnose an issue with my dish washer machine, I stumbled across a post from some guy who was hired by a temp agency to drive a delivery truck. He was seeking advice on how to operate a stick shift.
Henry David Thoreau - "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation..."
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
April 16, 2018 at 8:05 am
Eric M Russell - Monday, April 16, 2018 8:01 AMThe other day while browsing through the forums on JustAnswer, looking to diagnose an issue with my dish washer machine, I stumbled across a post from some guy who was hired by a temp agency to drive a delivery truck. He was seeking advice on how to operate a stick shift.Henry David Thoreau - "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation..."
Yikes
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
April 16, 2018 at 8:09 am
webrunner - Monday, April 16, 2018 7:49 AMMy suggestion based on thinking over what you wrote in your editorial is that perhaps registration for help forums like this one should have a "waiting room" with a list of general "have you tried..." advice for common problems. I thought for a moment that this page could be mandatory before allowing the person to post to the main forums, but upon further reflection, that sounds a bit draconian and also infantilizing - presumably they are grown-ups and know that they should try the "have you tried..." advice from more experienced professionals. Maybe a warning would suffice that the person should not expect much useful help if they skip the initial advice.Thanks a gain.
-webrunner
Yeah, interesting thoughts. I want to help people. Can we help them more by forcing them to read stuff? Maybe. Will they read it? I'm not sure. I think that might be the limiting factor. Although, unlike here or Quora or other places, SO and SE will absolutely nuke a question if it's a repeat of an existing question. They do require you to do some due diligence prior to getting assistance. It seems to work for some people, but not all. Still, good idea.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
April 16, 2018 at 8:09 am
Eric M Russell - Monday, April 16, 2018 8:01 AMThe other day while browsing through the forums on JustAnswer, looking to diagnose an issue with my dish washer machine, I stumbled across a post from some guy who was hired by a temp agency to drive a delivery truck. He was seeking advice on how to operate a stick shift.Henry David Thoreau - "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation..."
Oh my...
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
April 16, 2018 at 8:11 am
Eric M Russell - Monday, April 16, 2018 8:01 AMThe other day while browsing through the forums on JustAnswer, looking to diagnose an issue with my dish washer machine, I stumbled across a post from some guy who was hired by a temp agency to drive a delivery truck. He was seeking advice on how to operate a stick shift.Henry David Thoreau - "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation..."
Tell him to ask for one with an automatic 😛
April 16, 2018 at 8:21 am
I mostly agree with Grant, and I do appreciate Jeff's points in the first response. What I'll say, however, is that things take time. There are people that have been in this business for many years and don't understand things they should. However, for many, they are trying to get better. They're asking questions, and sometimes they are just trying to get things done.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't be learning, but it does mean that learning and improvement takes time. I try to remember that more and more as I work with others and teach them. They won't understand or appreciate the impact of their actions right away.
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
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April 16, 2018 at 8:24 am
webrunner - Monday, April 16, 2018 8:05 AMEric M Russell - Monday, April 16, 2018 8:01 AMThe other day while browsing through the forums on JustAnswer, looking to diagnose an issue with my dish washer machine, I stumbled across a post from some guy who was hired by a temp agency to drive a delivery truck. He was seeking advice on how to operate a stick shift.Henry David Thoreau - "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation..."
Yikes
It makes me recall navigating my own string of temp gigs the first few years after high school in the early '90s. At least young folk today have the internet.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
April 16, 2018 at 8:38 am
As the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." There will *always* be people who are willing and want to learn rather than being handed the "go faster" button, there will always be people who want the answer spoon fed to them, and there will be some that start as the second type and at some point change to the first type.
Some people were thrown into the deep end of the pool simply because they were "the computer person" at their work, where SQL may be nothing more than a side attraction to their "official" job. Some get thrown into that pool because they're the computer person who can be depended on and counted on to *learn* for themselves (me!) and then work to understand what they're doing. Others, well, they either over-estimated their skill level or outright falsified information on a job application and now are trying to avoid the consequences of those actions...
I have some sympathy for the first type ("I'm one of the accountants and my boss *told* me I now had to support the SQL backend of our accounting package because the person who used to do it quit / was fired / was hit by a bus / had a baby and we ran out of disk space with this enormous LDF file filling the drive and how do I fix this quick?") and absolutely *NO* sympathy for the last type. Sometimes, it's hard to tell the difference between the two types.
The problem is, every time one of the last type get an answer (not necessarily a *good* answer) to their problem, it causes two new effects. The first being, the next time someone tries to give them a *good* "here's where to look for the solution" answer, they tend to go "just tell me how to do it" on you. The second being, over time they have to ask more and more often, sometimes even the same questions, because of the level of cruft that has built up from previous not-good solutions. It's a vicious circle and it's not easy to break.
April 16, 2018 at 8:55 am
Eric M Russell - Monday, April 16, 2018 8:01 AMThe other day while browsing through the forums on JustAnswer, looking to diagnose an issue with my dish washer machine, I stumbled across a post from some guy who was hired by a temp agency to drive a delivery truck. He was seeking advice on how to operate a stick shift.Henry David Thoreau - "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation..."
Yikes.
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