April 16, 2018 at 2:58 pm
People are attracted to lottery style wins. Many times I've seen someone with ambition greater than anything else. They want to be at level 9000 but they don't want to go through the stages to get there. They want to go from 1000 to 9000 and that's not how any complex career works. They need to have the experience of progressing from 1000 to 2000 to 3000 and so on.
Reminds me of the cliche "you want what I have but you don't want to do what I do". It is a waste to spend energy on these people. They will be weeded out naturally in the workforce.
April 16, 2018 at 3:14 pm
Eric M Russell - Monday, April 16, 2018 12:24 PMHighPlainsDBA - Monday, April 16, 2018 11:43 AMGrant Fritchey - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:59 AMSean Lange - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:49 AMZZartin - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:42 AMThis is more a problem with bad expectations being set for higher education. A college degree is not supposed to be job training in computer science anymore than say an engineering degree is job training for being a car mechanic.When you attend a technical college and your degree is in programming it damn well better be preparing you for a real world position. Sadly in my experience it wasn't even on the same planet. This would be like attending culinary school and not being taught about food safety and preventing food borne illness with proper handling and storage of food.
My son had to take a programming course in C for his engineering degree he's currently working on. Yes, C. Not only that, but the teacher required them to take all tests on paper because "engineers and developers never make mistakes, so you have to be able to code everything, only on paper." He wouldn't let me go and have a chat with the guy. Anecdote <> Data, but it didn't give me a warm & fuzzy about the state of education.
Oh man, I had a couple professors that made us do that too. Paper tests/quizes using C. Forgot the semicolon on a statement? That'll be one point sir. Maybe 10 - 20% of my degree had real world benefits, the rest I had to learn OJT or on my own initiative.
Maybe they were preparing you for that job interview where you're expected to write code on the white board. 🙂
I always imagined that it was because machine time was expensive (this was 25 years ago) or had something to do with that anyway. It probably instills some discipline but at what cost to speed/productivity? With so many resources available to a developer now it doesn't seem to make much sense to be that slow when they can have their own software playground to prototype in. I rarely write code on a white board (pseudo code though) especially if it's the early stages of a solution; otherwise it tends to put you on rails mentally IMO. I prefer to sketch out the idealized logic/work flow and then pick the language that seems the best fit and then try to make it work... if I have that luxury.
April 16, 2018 at 4:49 pm
Passion rules all. If you are truly eager to learn something, no professor or whomever will stop you from learning what you need to learn. There are plenty of materials online, hell, plenty of materials in this forum, to learn and push forward. If you can't push forward and too blind to determine the value of what you are being taught, then you likely have no business doing what you are trying to do.
But that's just me, I have zero education and self-taught. I learned from being passionate about it and working from the ground up as a part-time fly on the wall.
April 16, 2018 at 9:12 pm
Your post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.
April 17, 2018 at 5:33 am
Marcia J - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:12 PMYour post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.
I had very similar experiences in film school. I went after the Navy, I was 24, and was paying my own way. My 18 year old "peers" had mom and dad on the hook for the experience and the motivations were pretty wildly different.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
April 17, 2018 at 6:01 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, April 16, 2018 10:12 AMMy kid did a Python course and then another programming one. I think they did a good job teaching programming fundamentals, but not for the real world. No VCS, no testing, just hack and go, much like I did back in 1979/80. There are better ways now, and there should be some updates to more classes.
And with that, I'll take my hat off to you and the other folks that founded SQLServerCentral and especially to you for the continuation after RedGate bought it. It's an amazing community and, with no exaggeration, will say that I wouldn't be where I am today without this site. Other sites certainly have a lot to offer but not the depth and breadth of this one. Shoot... I even remember some of the older heavy hitters on this site that have gone off to build their own sites and some have done pretty well thanks to what they're learned not only of the product but of the people.
--Jeff Moden
April 17, 2018 at 6:06 am
Jeff Moden - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:01 AMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, April 16, 2018 10:12 AMMy kid did a Python course and then another programming one. I think they did a good job teaching programming fundamentals, but not for the real world. No VCS, no testing, just hack and go, much like I did back in 1979/80. There are better ways now, and there should be some updates to more classes.And with that, I'll take my hat off to you and the other folks that founded SQLServerCentral and especially to you for the continuation after RedGate bought it. It's an amazing community and, with no exaggeration, will say that I wouldn't be where I am today without this site. Other sites certainly have a lot to offer but not the depth and breadth of this one. Shoot... I even remember some of the older heavy hitters on this site that have gone off to build their own sites and some have done pretty well thanks to what they're learned not only of the product but of the people.
Ditto 100% 🙂
Far away is close at hand in the images of elsewhere.
Anon.
April 17, 2018 at 7:21 am
Marcia J - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:12 PMYour post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.
Aside from the cost to tax payers, what you've described is another reason why I'm opposed to the idea of mass producing university degrees. My assertion is that less than half of high school graduates are really college material. I'm not saying they're stupid or even lazy; it's just that at best their thinking patterns are very process oriented (punch in, follow directions, punch out), or they're daydreaming / drifting rather than focusing on study. Many folks can't train themselves to focus until after they turn 25.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
April 17, 2018 at 7:48 am
Marcia J - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:12 PMYour post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.
Same here except that my previous shock has turned into a bit of disgust and, depending on how far they sometimes carry things, contempt.
--Jeff Moden
April 17, 2018 at 8:16 am
Eric M Russell - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:21 AMMarcia J - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:12 PMYour post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.Aside from the cost to tax payers, what you've described is another reason why I'm opposed to the idea of mass producing university degrees. My assertion is that less than half of high school graduates are really college material. I'm not saying they're stupid or even lazy; it's just that at best their thinking patterns are very process oriented (punch in, follow directions, punch out), or they're daydreaming / drifting rather than focusing on study. Many folks can't train themselves to focus until after they turn 25.
Age is an excuse for people not doing well in school, the problem at least in the US is we decided that noone should be allowed to fail in K-12 and instead of actually improving students the education system just makes it easier to graduate.
April 17, 2018 at 8:33 am
Grant Fritchey - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 5:33 AMMarcia J - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:12 PMYour post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.I had very similar experiences in film school. I went after the Navy, I was 24, and was paying my own way. My 18 year old "peers" had mom and dad on the hook for the experience and the motivations were pretty wildly different.
Similar here as well. My first year of college you could have lumped me with those kids. Joined the Air Force after being scholastically expelled. Those four years I grew up. Going back to college along with those just out of high school I saw the same thing. There were even those who would drop classes just to maintain a 4.0 average in college. When I changed schools and went to a professional studies environment (read that to mean other working adults) is when I started studying with others more interested in learning and advancing their careers.
April 17, 2018 at 9:00 am
My experience is that what determines how successful someone will ultimately be in a technical role is their approach. For me, what has worked best was identifying the goal to reach or problem to solve and using that as a guide to inform research and learning.
As with everything, there's a balance to be struck depending on urgency and other priorities. However, consistent a lot of other people's experiences, there are a lot of people who just want to copy-paste something and hit run.
April 17, 2018 at 9:34 am
Eric M Russell - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:21 AMMarcia J - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:12 PMYour post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.Aside from the cost to tax payers, what you've described is another reason why I'm opposed to the idea of mass producing university degrees. My assertion is that less than half of high school graduates are really college material. I'm not saying they're stupid or even lazy; it's just that at best their thinking patterns are very process oriented (punch in, follow directions, punch out), or they're daydreaming / drifting rather than focusing on study. Many folks can't train themselves to focus until after they turn 25.
I went right out of high school, so I don't think it's just age. Probably does have a lot to do with motivation. I will say the majority of the match/computer science majors that I associated with were fairly motivated and excited (at least for those courses).
This was from 1977 to 1981. I noticed when I dropped in a few years later, it felt to me (and this is highly subjective) that a lot more of the computer science majors were there because it was what was being pushed at the time and not there so much from enthusiasm for the subject.
April 17, 2018 at 9:49 am
Marcia J - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:34 AMEric M Russell - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:21 AMMarcia J - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:12 PMYour post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.Aside from the cost to tax payers, what you've described is another reason why I'm opposed to the idea of mass producing university degrees. My assertion is that less than half of high school graduates are really college material. I'm not saying they're stupid or even lazy; it's just that at best their thinking patterns are very process oriented (punch in, follow directions, punch out), or they're daydreaming / drifting rather than focusing on study. Many folks can't train themselves to focus until after they turn 25.
I went right out of high school, so I don't think it's just age. Probably does have a lot to do with motivation. I will say the majority of the match/computer science majors that I associated with were fairly motivated and excited (at least for those courses).
This was from 1977 to 1981. I noticed when I dropped in a few years later, it felt to me (and this is highly subjective) that a lot more of the computer science majors were there because it was what was being pushed at the time and not there so much from enthusiasm for the subject.
It really does depend on the student and their desires. My youngest daughter is studying Cyber Security at JWU in Providence, RI, and is heavily engaged in the program. Yes, Google is her friend (as am I depending on the course) but she takes the time to learn what she finds out there, even asking me if she is reading things correctly. But even she sees those that are just doing what it takes to pass, not necessarily really learn. She finds that attitude very frustrating.
April 17, 2018 at 10:00 am
Lynn Pettis - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:49 AMMarcia J - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:34 AMEric M Russell - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:21 AMMarcia J - Monday, April 16, 2018 9:12 PMYour post reminded me of something that happened my freshman year in college (many, many years ago.) One of my classmates asked me about a problem. So, I started trying to explain it to her. I was shocked to hear her say, "I don't want to understand it; I just want you to give me the answer."
I was paying my own way through college (with the help of a scholarship) and actually was excited to learn. I couldn't comprehend taking a class but not really wanting to understand the material.
I'm a little less naïve now and wouldn't be so easily shocked that someone would think that way.Aside from the cost to tax payers, what you've described is another reason why I'm opposed to the idea of mass producing university degrees. My assertion is that less than half of high school graduates are really college material. I'm not saying they're stupid or even lazy; it's just that at best their thinking patterns are very process oriented (punch in, follow directions, punch out), or they're daydreaming / drifting rather than focusing on study. Many folks can't train themselves to focus until after they turn 25.
I went right out of high school, so I don't think it's just age. Probably does have a lot to do with motivation. I will say the majority of the match/computer science majors that I associated with were fairly motivated and excited (at least for those courses).
This was from 1977 to 1981. I noticed when I dropped in a few years later, it felt to me (and this is highly subjective) that a lot more of the computer science majors were there because it was what was being pushed at the time and not there so much from enthusiasm for the subject.It really does depend on the student and their desires. My youngest daughter is studying Cyber Security at JWU in Providence, RI, and is heavily engaged in the program. Yes, Google is her friend (as am I depending on the course) but she takes the time to learn what she finds out there, even asking me if she is reading things correctly. But even she sees those that are just doing what it takes to pass, not necessarily really learn. She finds that attitude very frustrating.
Heh I tutored other people when I was in college, some people wanted to learn some people just wanted me to do their homework for them. The people who wanted to learn were cool to work with and it also helped me learn how to talk with people about things that weren't necessarily as obvious to them, they also did much better on the tests.
On the other hand some of the people who just wanted their homework done apparently didn't even pay attention on the first day of every comp sci class when it was explained they used code comparator and not to copy homework. Shockingly they decided to cut me out and share some stuff without understanding how to get around that and got caught 😛
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