May 21, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Thank you all for reading and participating. Not totally unexpected results, but helps me understand better the dynamics of teams, most are going to have the same kind of variety we see here:-)
May 26, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Different strokes for different folks....
Some are motivated by the desire to earn more ...
Some are motivated by the desire to deliver perfection ...
Some are motivated by the technical challenges and the opportunity to develop new skills ...
Some for a variety of reasons are not prepared to step outside what they are literally contracted to do...
Some will or won't get involved based on who asks them or how they are asked...
Some are motivated by the publicity / exposure they gain from doing this (or not doing that) ...
Some are motivated by a sense of responsibility to their team, department or organisation ...
... welcome to the world of managing people, where the only rule is that there is no absolutely constant rule for any one day or any one person!
May 26, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Dan.Humphries (5/21/2010)
I don't disagree that government will and has interefered with the private sector but I am not paranoid enough yet to beleive that policy will affect the kind of change that would literally cripple the economy. But then again I never thought the day would come when 500 SCIU member could be bused in to threaten a bank exec at his own house while his children were home and the main stream media would not even blink.
One did, but the so called main stream media like to criticize them as unfair and unbalanced (when they really are fair and balanced) because they are willing to point out when the Fox has entered the hen house with the intention of not only eating the chicks, but seems to want to burn it down as well.
Dave
May 26, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Wet Fart (5/21/2010)
Well.....since the U.S. and most of the world is in a state of depression it's not about what you want to do and be happy at it...it's all about if you're lucky enough to find any kind of work, and if you do be thankful because millions are out of work.In those millions out of work many have B.A.'s, PHD's and other education backgrounds. So be thankful for whatever job you have and pray it's still there tomorrow.
Interesting name...
So, if a company pays its employees 20% below market value, because it is hard for them to find another job, is that OK? I submit that it is not OK, and that they will pay the price. History has shown that when the economy recovers, and it will start to in the mid term elections, and will definitely benefit when the presidential election comes, the people who were abused by their employers are the first to go. Who is that - why the best and brightest of course. What do we hear then - "those ungrateful employees don't respect us and we are better off without them!"
Businesses, especially those in the US, need to learn that they can't continue to squeeze, lest they end up being less than competitive.
AT&T offered early retirement to lots of people, lost the best and brightest who went to work for MCI, and they drove AT+T to near bankruptcy. There are plenty of examples like this.
Pay people what the market value is, when you need to cut, cut fairly and appropriately, explain why it is necessary, make sure to stop bonuses to management while cutting employee salaries, and maybe when things improve your smartest workers will stay and make you competitive.
Dave
May 27, 2010 at 9:06 am
In response to Grasshopper,
I agree with you 99.9%
However when or even if our economy comes back corporate America will still keep most IT jobs across seas mainly in India because corporate America only wants to save money and squander us.
Pay rates will not increase even if our economy does comes back due to that main reason. I'm not justifying it, it's wrong but corporate America as they have proven does not value American workers no matter how good they are which we are but try telling them that.
May 27, 2010 at 9:20 am
Wet Fart, I think you're responding to DJackson 22568. His name is in bold. Grasshopper is the level.
It sounds like you've had a bad experience. I don't think that most jobs are overseas. Some are, in some industries, but there are still lots of IT jobs here that pay very well.
If that's your experience, I'm sorry. I'd suggest you find a better company, or perhaps, reexamine the way that you approach the job. That hasn't been my experience overall.
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May 27, 2010 at 9:30 am
Wet Fart (5/27/2010)
In response to Grasshopper,I agree with you 99.9%
However when or even if our economy comes back corporate America will still keep most IT jobs across seas mainly in India because corporate America only wants to save money and squander us.
Pay rates will not increase even if our economy does comes back due to that main reason. I'm not justifying it, it's wrong but corporate America as they have proven does not value American workers no matter how good they are which we are but try telling them that.
I have seen studies in various business magazines that show outsourcing, especially outside our country, has never shown the ROI values claimed. While I am sure there are some projects that are well run, there simply isn't the accountability with foreign companies that there is with your own workers. How many people truly feel that contracts mean anything in china?
My experience:
One consulting company I worked for sent people to Europe to work on projects. These projects were always successful. Part of it was our work ethic, leadership, et cetera. Part of it was certainly that the consultant was on site.
Another company I worked for has outsourced a number of projects. On those that the workers were located in the US, we see two basic results. Those projects that had people on site typically succeeded. Those that used remote services were mostly successful, but we did see more issues with not being able to hold people accountable. Remote workers were frequently assigned to too many projects and were unable to commit time to our issues.
Those projects where the workers were not located domestically failed in every case. One project was so badly run that the end cost was 3 times the budgeted amount, and although it was scheduled for 6 weeks it took more than 6 months to semi complete (never working as designed). This was a basic upgrade to one of the well known ERP systems out there, and the ERP company actually selected the vendor in India. It was absolutely impossible to get anyone to do anything, communicate with us, or resolve the multitude of issues. We ended up having to pay a third party to fix the system.
Again, I am sure there are people who have been involved with successful outsourcing projects, but you simply can't overcome the issue of accountability, especially if you are a small company with limited resources.
Dave
May 27, 2010 at 9:55 am
Those projects where the workers were not located domestically failed in every case. One project was so badly run that the end cost was 3 times the budgeted amount, and although it was scheduled for 6 weeks it took more than 6 months to semi complete (never working as designed). This was a basic upgrade to one of the well known ERP systems out there, and the ERP company actually selected the vendor in India. It was absolutely impossible to get anyone to do anything, communicate with us, or resolve the multitude of issues. We ended up having to pay a third party to fix the system.
Grasshopper :-D,
To me, in a selfish way this is kind of reassuring. That we can't just send projects to remote places and have them finished the same way as if they were done here. If that were the case we'd all be in trouble 🙁
What I've been hearing is that jobs and projects are being insourced due to there being a lack of communication and business sense overseas. I understand these folks are hardworking; maybe more so than us, but the climate is such that the work isn't done right or efficiently.
Ken
May 27, 2010 at 10:05 am
ken.trock (5/27/2010)
Those projects where the workers were not located domestically failed in every case. One project was so badly run that the end cost was 3 times the budgeted amount, and although it was scheduled for 6 weeks it took more than 6 months to semi complete (never working as designed). This was a basic upgrade to one of the well known ERP systems out there, and the ERP company actually selected the vendor in India. It was absolutely impossible to get anyone to do anything, communicate with us, or resolve the multitude of issues. We ended up having to pay a third party to fix the system.
Grasshopper :-D,
To me, in a selfish way this is kind of reassuring. That we can't just send projects to remote places and have them finished the same way as if they were done here. If that were the case we'd all be in trouble 🙁
What I've been hearing is that jobs and projects are being insourced due to there being a lack of communication and business sense overseas. I understand these folks are hardworking; maybe more so than us, but the climate is such that the work isn't done right or efficiently.
Ken
Good point, I don't mean to imply the issue was due to laziness - I have no way to know if they are hardworking or not. All I can judge is the results. Fact is, a lot of people in the US fail, and are hardworking, but their leaders burden them with too much work.
Dave
Dave
May 27, 2010 at 10:33 am
djackson 22568 (5/27/2010)
ken.trock (5/27/2010)
Good point, I don't mean to imply the issue was due to laziness - I have no way to know if they are hardworking or not. All I can judge is the results. Fact is, a lot of people in the US fail, and are hardworking, but their leaders burden them with too much work.
Dave
Or too little direction...I have worked in India on outsourced projects and I work here in US too, i kinda know both sides of the picture. Work culture is enormously different. In India and most Asian countries the emphasis is on team work and getting things done as a team. In the states individuals are given responsibilites and it is upto the manager to tie them together. When the manager is indifferent or apathetic then the project does not make much progress that is all.
Also from what I have seen in IT - and I know lot of people will differ but IT is not the best area of work for someone who prefers a strongly 9-5 job and does not want to do anything including learning after hours.As a team manager in the States i have had huge issues with this - some team members want to be just 9-5 and othesr will put in every minute they can get, and learn more, and it is very difficult to get them all on the same page. It is very difficult even to evaluate a team here, since there are no standards as to what is 'hard work'.
There are still plenty of jobs left in the states and will always be. Perhaps we need to look deeper into working as teams and what it takes to succeed in IT better.
May 27, 2010 at 11:18 am
Based on many years in the IT industry. Outsourcing to India has presented two main problems for us in IT in the past:
1. Communication - This is partly due to the 10-11 hour time difference, and it is also partly due to the heavy dialect the Indians tend to have when they speak English. It can be difficult to understand them even on a clear telephone connection.
2. Not on site - Sometimes this becomes a real issue when trying to solve intricate and difficult problems and the developer is not just down the hall.
Neither of these issues most managers care about because they don't have to deal with them. "That's IT's problem" as they like to typically say. "What the CEO cares about is that we can hire 10 of them and work them virtually around the clock for just one American worker." As long as this is the mentality in managment, the American worker just can't compete with that. This is quickly becoming a national problem for our economy and our American workforce. So much so, that it now has the full attention of President Obama. Now what he does about it is a totally different story, but outsourcing American jobs to India and China must stop if our economy is to rebound succesfully. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 27, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Travis, completely agree on 2. On 1 it is very essential to have a middle person who understands both dialects well who can be a good translator and is in on all conversations. On one very successful outsourcing project I was on there were two people one on the Indian side and one American who would serve this purpose. As far as accent and dialect goes ther are as many people who do not understand American English as there are with Indian English!! Even some of my British collegues have serious problems initially.
Again as far as the global economy issues go it is much bigger than IT projects getting done in India. To my mind it has everything to do with how corporate american philosphy is defined - maximise profit with minimal attention to anything else. Most other countries (including India!) have mandated that companies provide certain benefits. Here it is nothing and no matter how old or how experienced you are you are always at the mercy of someone to have a job. That is the basic problem and unless that changes all other things will not.
May 27, 2010 at 12:38 pm
On 1 it is very essential to have a middle person who understands both dialects well who can be a good translator and is in on all conversations. On one very successful outsourcing project I was on there were two people one on the Indian side and one American who would serve this purpose. As far as accent and dialect goes ther are as many people who do not understand American English as there are with Indian English!! Even some of my British collegues have serious problems initially.
I agree that having translators are always a good idea on both sides, however, this is not always feasible during different times of the day and night due to the vast time difference of our two countries. Also, while I agree that many dialects of all different languages can be difficult to understand at times, I find they occur more frequently in IT for American workers trying to understand the Indians and Chinese, particularly over a bad overseas telephone connection in the middle of the night. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 27, 2010 at 12:45 pm
TravisDBA (5/27/2010)
On 1 it is very essential to have a middle person who understands both dialects well who can be a good translator and is in on all conversations. On one very successful outsourcing project I was on there were two people one on the Indian side and one American who would serve this purpose. As far as accent and dialect goes ther are as many people who do not understand American English as there are with Indian English!! Even some of my British collegues have serious problems initially.
I agree that having translators are always a good idea on both sides, however, this is not always feasible during different times of the day and night due to the vast time difference of our two countries. Also, while I agree that many dialects of all different languages can be difficult to understand at times, I find they occur more frequently in IT for American workers trying to understand the Indians and Chinese, particularly over a bad overseas telephone connection in the middle of the night. 😀
I have to agree with trying to understand Indian English over a bad connection, or in the case I experienced, while in a noisy computer room at 3:00 AM in the morning. And the people I was talking to were in the US, not India. The soft, quick speech was difficult to hear over the noise in the computer room.
May 27, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Most other countries (including India!) have mandated that companies provide certain benefits. Here it is nothing and no matter how old or how experienced you are you are always at the mercy of someone to have a job. That is the basic problem and unless that changes all other things will not.
Isn't this what the riots in Paris were about a few years ago; that workers were being asked to make certain concessions like not automatically getting 6 weeks of vacation and other perks? So you keep these constraints for employers that are nice for employees. Problem will be that no one dares do any new hiring for fear they could get stuck with someone they don't want. Here in the US, and most places I imagine, our employment is "at will".
I'm not saying either way is better but just so you realize there are tradeoffs.
Ken
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