May 13, 2010 at 7:18 am
The underlying issue is psychological and is similar to counselling people. Basically by responding to the problem you are, in the mind of the requester, taking ownership of the problem. So if your solution does not work perfectly or is only a partial solution, the requester then gets agrieved at your failure and demands you provide a solution that does work.
If you are going to answer then you probably have to give some alternative approaches and stress that it is their problem and they have to think it through to get the most appropriate solution.
May 13, 2010 at 8:18 am
While I agree with everything you've said, I wonder if perhaps you're forgetting how it is to be one of the little guys.
I'm in the fortunate position where I can mentor others, but still need help occasionally with the really complicated stuff. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect that many do what I do. Spend hours, days, or even weeks, trying to solve a problem. When all else fails, I go to a forum to get other opinions. The forums are not the be-all and end-all, they're a last resort. Many times I don't even get a response. That could be the reason for caps; at least it might conjure up some interest. Then some of the answers I get are so completely irrelevant and obviously wrong that I wonder if the 'expert' even read the question. But rarely I get one, the needle in the haystack, that's worth wading through all the crud for.
I certainly don't expect anyone to do my job for me. I've seen posts where that's clearly what the requestor is looking for, but they're usually few and far between. And if I happen to be the 'expert' on those occasions, that's when I just stop answering the questions. If you spoon-feed someone, they'll keep coming back for more.
When I post a question, I'm looking for a collaborator, not a babysitter. But don't waste my time either, by not reading past the first line of the question.
May 13, 2010 at 8:19 am
I'm sure that, as some point on these forums, I've asked a question and indicated that I needed an answer in a hurry. I think that, when I read the answer given, I always thank the person answering. But just to re-iterate, I thank everyone on SQL Server Central who has ever answered any of my questions, for your help and input.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
May 13, 2010 at 8:42 am
sburcombe (5/13/2010)
The forums are not the be-all and end-all, they're a last resort. ... When I post a question, I'm looking for a collaborator, not a babysitter. But don't waste my time either, by not reading past the first line of the question.
RE: First quoted sentence. For you, me, and some others this is true, however for many people it is false. However, you can usually tell by the content of the question whether someone is approaching the forum as a first or last resort.
As for the last quoted part, I agree. I can't count the number of times someone has fired back a "Boy you sure are dumb if you haven't done "X,Y,Z" already" without even reading far enough to see that I'ld already tried "X, Y, and Z" as well as "AA through AZ".
It does help to occasionally be pointed to a "How to post questions in this forum" FAQ. Someone posted an excellent article on this a couple of weeks back that really helped me understand the very basic issue of how to ask for help in a way that encourages responses.
May 13, 2010 at 8:43 am
Grant's out today (my bad scheduling), but thanks for the responses.
I think that some of the experts do forget that it's tough at times, but all caps don't necessarily help. Pushing on volunteers for help isn't the solution. If you're at the end of your rope, you should be calling someone and paying for help. Call MS, call Microsoft Consulting, or a local consulting company. Pressure on those of us doing this for free doesn't help.
There are times when experts don't have the answer you need. We might not be any smarter about the situation than you are and might suggest things that seem silly. Maybe they are, maybe we're reaching for a solution when we're not sure, but we're trying. Keep that in mind.
If it's not good enough, break out the checkbook.
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May 13, 2010 at 8:45 am
I've been a member here for a while, and my skillset has matured in a large part because i answer questions here.
I'd love to see my first 20 posts here on SSC just to see what kind of noob questions I used to ask here before i "grew up";
i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them were things comperable to our "URGENT" examples that i could have solved with some google-fu.
Lowell
May 13, 2010 at 8:47 am
>>they're a last resort
No, forums are NOT the last resort! If you can't figure it out for yourself, don't have someone at work to assist, can't get someone to help you for FREE, then you can find someone or some entity to help you for FEE. If you or your company has no money for that then either the company will need to reassess it's priority on the matter or you will need to study harder.
>>But don't waste my time either, by not reading past the first line of the question
How in the world can anyone on a forum waste YOUR time as the poster if they read the first line and then move on to someone else to help?!? They wouldn't even be wasting your time (or no more than a few seconds of it) if they gave a response saying your request was too complex for a forum, incomplete or poorly documented, you should get a professional to help you, the moon is in aquarious so I can't help, etc.
Best,
Kevin G. Boles
SQL Server Consultant
SQL MVP 2007-2012
TheSQLGuru on googles mail service
May 13, 2010 at 8:47 am
I completely agree that demanding requests are arrogant and insulting. I hope that I never have the opportunity to work under those individuals posting these requests.
The flip side is that I also agree that the novice sometimes feels the wrath of the swiftly swinging pendulum.
There is lazy and self entitlement then there is the newbie who really does need a set of training wheels and a strong push on the back. It’s always a rough start but we all want them to succeed.
May 13, 2010 at 8:53 am
TheSQLGuru (5/13/2010)
>>they're a last resortNo, forums are NOT the last resort!
TheSQLGuru is right! this forum is one of my first items on my list of resources!
this is pretty much what i use for something i don't know off the top of my head:
Trying to code it myself.
Books Online:
Googling SQLServerCentral.com specifically
Google in general
Adding a forum post for something i couldn't get my arms around.
Lowell
May 13, 2010 at 9:03 am
>>No, forums are NOT the last resort!
I apologize for not clarifying. Forums are my last resort before going to a consultant.
>>How in the world can anyone on a forum waste YOUR time as the poster if they read the first line and then move on to someone else to help?!?
It certainly does waste my time when I wade through a ton of code that is clearly irrelevant to the question, if the expert would know if they had read it. While I do appreciate a response, I would rather spend time on one that addresses the question, even if it doesn't answer it:
>> I can't count the number of times someone has fired back a "Boy you sure are dumb if you haven't done "X,Y,Z" already" without even reading far enough to see that I'ld already tried "X, Y, and Z" as well as "AA through AZ".
May 13, 2010 at 9:16 am
>> I can't count the number of times someone has fired back a "Boy you sure are dumb if you haven't done "X,Y,Z" already" without even reading far enough to see that I'ld already tried "X, Y, and Z" as well as "AA through AZ".
I despise that type of poster. They are either padding their ego, padding their posting count or both, but regardless of the reason there is no excuse for getting down on a poster. Well, sometimes the poster can be an @ss too I suppose, often from some sense of entitlement. 🙁
Best,
Kevin G. Boles
SQL Server Consultant
SQL MVP 2007-2012
TheSQLGuru on googles mail service
May 13, 2010 at 9:39 am
Lowell (5/13/2010)
TheSQLGuru (5/13/2010)
>>they're a last resortNo, forums are NOT the last resort!
TheSQLGuru is right! this forum is one of my first items on my list of resources!
this is pretty much what i use for something i don't know off the top of my head:
Trying to code it myself.
Books Online:
Googling SQLServerCentral.com specifically
Google in general
Adding a forum post for something i couldn't get my arms around.
Lowell, I think what TheSQLGuru meant was Adding a forum post as the last result... where it is in your list also.
I would add to your list (after googling SSC specifically): Googling microsoft.com specifically
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
May 13, 2010 at 10:06 am
jorge_gomes98 (5/13/2010)
Olá,não me parece que seja tão drástico colocar "Urgent" nos pedidos; aliás, desta forma, pode-se sempre tentar ajudar as pessoas com alguma ordem de prioridade.
No entanto, acho que muitas vezes as pessoas abusam da ajuda, pensam que os outros são criados deles e querem a toda a força que lhes façam o trabalho.
Assim não dá! Para isso que paguem a uma empresa.
In other words, if people wants the job done totaly and imediatly they must pay. nobody is slave!
Eu no falo portugues...but well said.
Grant, great editorial and completely agree with you.
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KB Article from Microsoft on how to ask a question on a Forum
May 13, 2010 at 10:36 am
I enjoyed the article and I also have enjoyed some of the comments.
I am fairly new to the SQL community and I have asked for help and responded to a call for help. I also admit that I have missed the mark a few times in my responces. It is a great way to learn but I think part of the curve is terminology. I know early on I frustrated a user with a question that I had spent hours trying to find on google. The problem wasn't my desire to find the answer on my own as much as it was having the vocabulary to enter a search that would return a viable set of results. Once pointed in the right direction I was able to find many example of what I was trying to do.
I do have to add though on a side note that I find the SQL community as a whole more willing to help than any other area of IT. While I am new to SQL I have been around the IT community my entire career. compared to many other such boards across IT I can say with complete confidence that this community has been by far the most helpful. I have never gotten the type of un helpful responces I get on a typical windows forum.
Actual responce from one forum post on domain policies "Did you install windows server yet?"
My responce "Nope I hacked into some one elses server and I am trying to set there group policies."
Dan
If only I could snap my figures and have all the correct indexes apear and the buffer clean and.... Start day dream here.
May 13, 2010 at 11:52 am
Thanks Grant. This editorial was perfectly timed for me. Having recently encountered several of these where the OP had not tried anything yet because s/he did not understand the requirements or know how to code the entire solution. For those types, my best answer is to hire a consultant.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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