August 25, 2008 at 8:52 am
Jack Corbett (8/25/2008)
I have noticed that people have mentioned googling a problem or asking someone else at the office for help on an issue as cheating. I don't consider either cheating. I just googled using an SSIS Script Transform to add output rows because I had no idea how to do it and LEARNED how to do it. I already had the general idea, but I did not know the specifics. If I don't know how to do something I need to find out how and my resources are books, the internet, and co-workers. In my mind cheating in this case would be claiming to have done it all on my own and not crediting the resources I used.
I actually brought that up because when I graduated from college I discovered that asking others for, not just help but the flat out solution, was no longer frowned upon but actually encouraged. It was definitely a shift in attitude I had to adjust to. What I find so interesting about that now is that it was the same behavior but treated entirely different depending on the environment. As Steve's original editorial brought up, if someone asks a question on these forums and you suspect the person is a student trying to get their homework done you'll probably be reluctant to give them the answer. However if you think they're working on the job you'll probably be more than happy to just give them the answer.
Kids, students, are smart and pick up on the dual perceptions of that behavior: asking someone else for the answer. If you're a student and realize that in the "real world" no one's going to care if you get your solution from someone else, it's easy to do that as a student. I took a Spanish class and we had to translate some words into English. I noticed someone next to me who just typed in the Spanish word into an online translator and wrote down the result. Cheating? Probably. Is that what you would do if you weren't in a class? Probably. So you're definitely learning a skill you'll be using in the workplace...
I remember when using calculators in class was frowned upon because you weren't learning how to do the problem yourself. But now it's fine because what's the point in doing a problem manually when you'll always use a calculator outside of the class. It's interesting. What is considered cheating is not black and white but very flexible and changes over time.
August 25, 2008 at 8:57 am
Amen.
On a simply practical level, integrity = workability. Cooperation is fundamental to making intentions (projects, agreements...) that *work*, and cooperation doesn't work with mis-information. Lying and cheating are misinformation.
I remember talking to a person who had moved to the U.S. after 4 decades of growing up and living in the USSR / Russia. He talked about how the Russian economy's weakness was Russia's corrupt court system: bribing of judges is commonplace, almost standard, and so people have no recourse, when there are illegal business dealings, or when agreements are broken.
So, how much would you be willing to have large scale business partnerships, or make big investments, with someone whose word has no power?
As regards: "I have no idea how to change this in the world at large, other than more emphasis throughout society on the way you succeed rather than the success." I'm not sure about the world at large, either -- making your point of view re' integrity clear in all your own business dealings *does* make a difference, I believe.
On a more personal note: I made it clear to my children that the punishment for *lying* to me about what they did would be 10 times bigger than the punishment for what they did. And I followed thru on that: if you were going to lose T.V. for a night, it might become losing T.V. for a week. After the first few times, it didn't happen much.... and my now-college-age kids have great integrity.
Thanks, and be well....
-- Doug Ivison, divison@SureSource.com
August 25, 2008 at 8:59 am
Timothy (8/25/2008)
I remember when using calculators in class was frowned upon because you weren't learning how to do the problem yourself. But now it's fine because what's the point in doing a problem manually when you'll always use a calculator outside of the class. It's interesting. What is considered cheating is not black and white but very flexible and changes over time.
Uh oh, you're about to get me started on calculators in class... you have been warned 🙂
Calculators are fine for upper level math and science classes when the kids have already learned how to DO what they use the calculator for, but they now use it for a time saver. The problem is, they are being introduced now in grade school before kids have actually learned how to DO the operations they are plugging into the calculator. End result - adults who can't do simple arithmetic.
If you want me to continue to rant, please mention the lack of critical thinking skills in schools, or the continued use of this "whole language" bull* instead of phonics to teach "word memorization" instead of word attack skills...
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant
August 25, 2008 at 9:00 am
Interesting responses and thanks for the comments. It's good to hear what others think.
I'd argue that Googling for help at work or trying to find an answer to an issue isn't cheating in the sense that you're doing research. I'm not quite sure how this is different than going to the library and researching things (how I used to do it) or asking someone that new (for previous generations). That sharing of information is how to advance as a society, each of us becoming more specialized.
If you use Google to answer a question geared for your knowledge, such as an exam question, the Question of the Day, etc., then you're cheating. You're cheating others of the score and yourself of the chance to learn. I answer the QOD most days, and get some wrong. Either I don't remember the answer, or I misread it, but I don't worry about it. I either confirm what I know or accept the lost points.
If you Google for help on homework, I'd be OK, but you have to understand and do the work yourself. I Google for code solutions, but I try to be sure I understand them if I use them. That's one reason we started this site: to give information and help you understand more, not just post code.
I'd hate to think that people are basically evil. I could be wrong, but I think the vast majority people are inherently empathetic, sympathetic, they take pride in work, and they try to help others. That's basically good. They also are weak, want the easy way out, struggle with desires and wants, and get seduced by power. I think we'd never have societies if we weren't basically good, but there's definitely a lot of room to fall.
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August 25, 2008 at 9:09 am
You make a very interesting point, that being seduced by power, ironically, comes out of weakness.
August 25, 2008 at 9:10 am
Steve Jones - Editor (8/25/2008)
I think we'd never have societies if we weren't basically good, but there's definitely a lot of room to fall.
I don't know, Steve. If there's no society, how can I (as an evil plotting thief) manipulate and exploit anyone? With organization comes the opportunity for exponential gain and a buffer that enables me to claim plausible deniability.
Not that I'm into that sort of thing.
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
August 25, 2008 at 9:12 am
There will always be people that cheat, lie, kill, steal, etc. However if that were how most people had been, I'm not sure we'd have evolved. I think there would have been more chaos.
My opinion, and I'm talking off the cuff here, so I could be completely off base. But my first few reactions are that we're basically good.
The fact that we are means that a few of you (hopefully not you specifically) can plot and manipulate the system.
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August 25, 2008 at 9:40 am
There is also another side to this: toleration of people that cheat. People that would never cheat themselves are often willing to overlook it in others. Is an organization served by letting someone lie on their expense report, pad the financial numbers, take credit for the work of others, or lie to the public?
At the US Military Academy, the honor code is one simple line: "A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do."
Although this is a tough standard to live up to, it’s a good starting point to determine where your moral compass it pointing.
August 25, 2008 at 10:02 am
John Snyder (8/25/2008)
Interesting topic. Let's not focus only on sports or the workplace but on life in general. Too many of the younger generations show less and less respect for others. Murder rates rise, teenagers don't want to work a typical summer job; I could go on and on. As someone who grew up in the post WWII era we were taught those values. Now both parents work and don't have the time to spend with their children and expect day care to teach their children core values. But then what do you expect since they also were probably raised in day care and possibly their parents also were raised in day care also. In reality this has generated the welfare mentality of you owe a good life and I'm too lazy to earn it myself.I hope someday folks will wake up before it's too late to recover from this.
Cheating and entitlement thinking is not due to both parents working. As a boomer myself, you might think I grew up in an Ozzie and Harriet family situation. Not so. My Dad didn't make enought money to support the family by himself, plus my Mom really enjoyed working, so she went back to work after a year and my Grandmother came out and helped with me until I was three. Then I was with a babysitter Mom (precursor to daycare) until I started school, and went to a babysitter Mom after school until my parents came home. Yet I was always taught to work hard, play by the rules, and I could expect a better life than my parents had.
August 25, 2008 at 10:08 am
Timothy (8/25/2008)
John Magnabosco (8/25/2008)
Cheating and thinking that we are due something without effort is a trait that is to be discouraged. Unfortunately it's close cousin is the drive to figure out how to achieve something with less effort (aka: technology). The former is greed the later is ingenuity. It is a thin line indeed.When I read that I started thinking of people who look up answers to a technology question by asking a colleague, going on Google, etc. For a long time I actually considered that cheating because I would take the time to figure out some problem whereas the guy next to me would just ask someone else for the solution. They might not have understood why it worked, but they got it done quicker. In school that behavior would be considered cheating -- I think -- but in the workplace it's called "getting the job done", "using all available resources", or whatever buzz phrase. So it is a fine line indeed between cheating and legitimately trying to get things done with less effort.
I believe I have learned more from "tech plagiarism" than I learned in any class on a language or a particular skill. Especially if the person providing the information explains why they did it a certain way. Even if it is using some code that someone else developed, you need to read it through, analyze it, and figure out why it is working for your problem. Remember what Einstein said: "I stand on the shoulders of giants." We hopefully learn from our predecessors so we don't need to keep reinventing the wheel. I don't think this is cheating -- it is like being mentored.
August 25, 2008 at 10:13 am
Timothy (8/25/2008)
Jack Corbett (8/25/2008)
I have noticed that people have mentioned googling a problem or asking someone else at the office for help on an issue as cheating. I don't consider either cheating. I just googled using an SSIS Script Transform to add output rows because I had no idea how to do it and LEARNED how to do it. I already had the general idea, but I did not know the specifics. If I don't know how to do something I need to find out how and my resources are books, the internet, and co-workers. In my mind cheating in this case would be claiming to have done it all on my own and not crediting the resources I used.I actually brought that up because when I graduated from college I discovered that asking others for, not just help but the flat out solution, was no longer frowned upon but actually encouraged. It was definitely a shift in attitude I had to adjust to. What I find so interesting about that now is that it was the same behavior but treated entirely different depending on the environment. As Steve's original editorial brought up, if someone asks a question on these forums and you suspect the person is a student trying to get their homework done you'll probably be reluctant to give them the answer. However if you think they're working on the job you'll probably be more than happy to just give them the answer.
Kids, students, are smart and pick up on the dual perceptions of that behavior: asking someone else for the answer. If you're a student and realize that in the "real world" no one's going to care if you get your solution from someone else, it's easy to do that as a student. I took a Spanish class and we had to translate some words into English. I noticed someone next to me who just typed in the Spanish word into an online translator and wrote down the result. Cheating? Probably. Is that what you would do if you weren't in a class? Probably. So you're definitely learning a skill you'll be using in the workplace...
I remember when using calculators in class was frowned upon because you weren't learning how to do the problem yourself. But now it's fine because what's the point in doing a problem manually when you'll always use a calculator outside of the class. It's interesting. What is considered cheating is not black and white but very flexible and changes over time.
To a point, you may be right when there seems to be a distinction between a student asking for help on a homework assignment, and a worker looking for help on a problem at work. The difference I usually see, but not always, is the worker usually shows what they have done so far rather than just asking for the answer. The student just asks for an answer without showing any work.
I have no problems helping either, but I do ask to see what they have done so far, as I need to know what they have tried, so I'm not heading down the same path they have already.
I agree with most of the people on this thread. I have tried very hard to teach my children right from wrong, and that there is fixed standard in this regard. Right and wrong are black and white, the application of the law is where the shades of grey come in. If the speed limit is 55 and you are doing 56 you are wrong; however, a police officer may simply let you continue on and continue looking for the speeder that thinks its okay to 65 in the same area.
I also see this in soccer. Guess what, we sometimes allow fouls to go unpunished. It could be trivial, or have no impact on the game, or the fouled team may have an advantage if we don't call the foul. Doesn't make it right, but it falls into the shades of grey.
It truely comes down to what is important, and what you have control over. I can't control others, but I can control myself. My integrity is more important, and I'd prefer to do what is right. I'm the one you will find stopping at the 4 way stop in the middle of nowhere with no one around to see me do it.
😎
August 25, 2008 at 10:14 am
Bert (8/25/2008)
I'll most likely be crucified for this response but I cannot keep silent. The reason for this phenomenon is that we live in an evil world. People are basically evil, not good. The solution to this problem is the realization that there are consequences for one's actions; worldly AND eternal consequences.I have always and will always maintain that my most prized possession is my personal integrity. It is the only thing one acquires while on earth that you take with you when you die.
Sincerely,
Bert
I feel very sorry for you, Bert. I've done my share of travelling and I've had quite a few instances where I had to rely on other people for directions, for assistance of one kind or another, and in 98% of the cases people have gone out of their way to be helpful. Same thing with work. I'vel run into the occasional [insert your favorite expletive here], but most people are helpful.
August 25, 2008 at 10:19 am
jay holovacs (8/25/2008)
An additional thought.Detection of cheaters appears to be an evolutionarily selected behavior (it also exists to some degree in other primates). Humans are actually fairly good at it, so that it takes a really skillful cheater to get away with it for long.
Some interesting psychological test have been performed to demonstrate this, where a complex logic puzzle is written two ways: one as solving the puzzle to identify a cheater, and the other as a neutral scenario. These puzzles are presented to test subjects. The subjects are much more likely to solve the problem when presented as a cheating incident then when presented in a neutral framework, even though logically the problems are identical.
We also seem genetically programmed to expect fairness and to expect to share rewards. (Probably why this thread hits a common nerve.)
Psychologists have done some early childhood tests which indicate children as young as 2 can tell when a situation is fair to all concerned or someone else is getting more than their fair share. Comparing this with chimps, they find that chimps expect to try to get as much for themselves as possible, and will not share with another, even when it means it is impossible for them to get at more rewards.
August 25, 2008 at 10:24 am
If feel sorry for those who believe that just because people do good things, they are good. History, and society at large bear me out. And as so many here have eloquently said, it takes sound, consistent instruction to overcome our natural inclination toward doing the wrong thing.
August 25, 2008 at 10:35 am
Timothy (8/25/2008)
Jack Corbett (8/25/2008)
I have noticed that people have mentioned googling a problem or asking someone else at the office for help on an issue as cheating. I don't consider either cheating. I just googled using an SSIS Script Transform to add output rows because I had no idea how to do it and LEARNED how to do it. I already had the general idea, but I did not know the specifics. If I don't know how to do something I need to find out how and my resources are books, the internet, and co-workers. In my mind cheating in this case would be claiming to have done it all on my own and not crediting the resources I used....
Kids, students, are smart and pick up on the dual perceptions of that behavior: asking someone else for the answer. If you're a student and realize that in the "real world" no one's going to care if you get your solution from someone else, it's easy to do that as a student. I took a Spanish class and we had to translate some words into English. I noticed someone next to me who just typed in the Spanish word into an online translator and wrote down the result. Cheating? Probably. Is that what you would do if you weren't in a class? Probably. So you're definitely learning a skill you'll be using in the workplace...
I remember when using calculators in class was frowned upon because you weren't learning how to do the problem yourself. But now it's fine because what's the point in doing a problem manually when you'll always use a calculator outside of the class. It's interesting. What is considered cheating is not black and white but very flexible and changes over time.
I agree that it seems silly to force rote memorization of dates or how to do square roots manually when you can easily reference it on our ubiquitous computers. However, the Spanish class was trying to teach the students a language skill. How will that cheater fare when (s)he is in a foreign country which uses Spanish? What happens when the batteries die in the translator or (s)he is away from the available technology? It just hurts the cheater in the long run. It also forces the teachers to be more creative in coming up with cheat-resistant tests, such as in-class essays.
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