January 9, 2009 at 10:55 am
The harsh reality is that we live in a world where image does matter!
That being said, I like the idea of having to dress up for work (perhaps not a suit/tie on a daily basis) but something that gives an onlooker a feel that the person is going somewhere important and not to a pub or a movie. I have the luxury of working at a company where the dress code is casual however there are times in the summer when it looks like the people, particulary the ladies, are going to the beach with tank tops and flip flops!! To me that looks completely unprofessional and it does not look good especially at times when there is a need for facing clients.
A workplace where people dress up gives a feel of professionalism and commitment rather than a hangout of college students at a football tailgate party.
January 9, 2009 at 10:56 am
gcopeland (1/9/2009)
2. Absent any other guidance, all technical professionals should shoot for a wardrobe appearance as close to this as they can possibly get: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/tech/images/080625gates_retiring.jpg. Once again, this is simply a fact, and there is no need to argue.
I never have gone much for the Mr. Rogers style. I know that Bill Gates adopted it to soften his well-known abrasive management style.
I find your absolutism objectionable. And if you can't take argument with your opinions, why state them in this kind of forum?
Are you sure your name isn't Brian?
This kind of "my way or the highway" opinion is the reason I have no faith that the retiring of current CEO's will mean the death of the dress code.
January 9, 2009 at 10:59 am
If we remove the details regarding dress codes and work rules in this whole set of responses we have a discussion about the nature of freedom and a person's sense of self in any setting, and it is a short hop from there to Monty Python and "The Meaning of Life".
If a person, the editorial "you", is truly comfortable with themselves, they will somehow radiate that comfort to those around them. Then those around them are far more likely to not notice the clothes as the primary defining characteristic of "you". And, "you", will likely not really be sweating what you are wearing. So if you don't feel comfortable in your clothes, maybe you have something else going on besides your wardrobe.
It is a very old story, dress the inner person first. The rest is window dressing. Not unlike database technology. If the internals are good, the life of a dba is greatly improved. I used to work on one of the first, if not the first, Oracle Parallel Server installations. It wasn't. (Parallel that is). It took a while to get things sorted out. Put another way, brush up on social and SQL skills, then go shopping for clothes with someone who has a good sense of what you look good in. And don't buy anything unless you find it is a fun experience.
PS. I am sort of scared by the HR person's responses. They seem pretty darn sure of everything they were saying. I would have a hard time surviving a first contact with them in the interview process. Though I am usually hired by executives who want some cultural shift to occur and the HR person rarely sees me.
I knew a fellow at a large manufacturing company. His job was to wander around in any of their plants around the world and see what looked good and bad. He could fire or promote or rearrange people on the spot. He often was shoeless yet fashionable as he went around the plants. The company wasn't paying him for his shoes. They are a remarkably profitable and long lived company. What were they thinking? Or perhaps more importantly, what was he thinking?
January 9, 2009 at 11:04 am
If you strip out the details of the HR person's comments -- that is, we all ought to strive to dress as Bill Gates, etc. -- the substance seems to me to be something like "There ARE indeed standards of dress, speech, and behavior in business, and you flaunt them at your own risk".
I have had a lot of experience in other countries, and it is clear to me at least that the U.S. has a lot of in-built resistance to 'adult' norms of behavior, or perhaps in other words the idea that anyone other than me could possibly tell me what to wear or what to do. Just like a teenager.
January 9, 2009 at 11:07 am
george sibbald (1/9/2009)
Grant Fritchey (1/9/2009
No imagination required. I have two kilts (so far) and I've done all sorts of work in them. I don't see the issue 😛
.
from your angle you wouldn't be able to. 🙂
EXACTLY!
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
January 9, 2009 at 11:09 am
knausk (1/9/2009)
I knew a fellow at a large manufacturing company. His job was to wander around in any of their plants around the world and see what looked good and bad. He could fire or promote or rearrange people on the spot. He often was shoeless yet fashionable as he went around the plants. The company wasn't paying him for his shoes.
A guy walking around a manufacturing plant shoeless? I don't believe it.
January 9, 2009 at 11:14 am
They made very soft things.
January 9, 2009 at 11:21 am
I overlooked the 'overseas' part... Anyone who tried that in the U.S. would be run out of town (osha, etc.).
January 9, 2009 at 11:22 am
Personally, I don't know that 'clothes make the man (or woman)'. My current office runs to nice casual clothing, but we dress up when we are meeting with clients. I make sure I follow all the company rules about no logos on shirts and such because I am hoping to move up into management.
In my previous position at another company, I was required to wear a dress or skirt everyday along with pantyhose. This seemed a bit ridiculous because I was in a NOC and spent my time in the cold and dark and usually all alone. It was even funner when we had to run lines and crawl behind racks and other things - but you follow the rules.
I think Steve's attire for the podcasts is great. Heck - it would be my dream attire. Since I spend most of my time just drilling away at my databases, clothing really doesn't make or break my job. If I could get away with it - I would spend my entire life in running clothes.
January 9, 2009 at 11:23 am
crussell (1/9/2009)
There comes a point when I look at someone dressed like a slob and think he probably programs like he dresses, doesn't pay much attention to detail. It may just be an emotional response but I it can be carried over to other areas. If I get a resume with loads of spelling and gramatical errors, I think how can this person program accurately when he can't even spell (and yes, spelling does matter in programming -- I hate field names that are not spelled correctly).
I must say that I'm very much the same way. Attention to detail, especially in IT, is very important. If their manner, dress, resume, etc. shows a lack of such attention to detail, regardless of the style of dress, it brings into question their ability to do the job correctly.
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January 9, 2009 at 11:24 am
You do flaunt them at your own risk, certainly. And as you or someone here said, though I paraphrase, Americans are reluctant to be adults in so many ways. Take Japan, please. Stereotypically uniform, selfless.
I would say one of the biggest problems in industry and politics and life, is the fearful mindset, that avoids rocking (flaunting certain rules) the boat, if there is a perceived risk to their own personal security.
Job security comes from being competent, open to ideas and people around you, and being okay with saying what you think especially if it puts your self on the line. Sort of the anti-CYA approach. I have found it is the best source of job security, and CYA is not.
January 9, 2009 at 11:24 am
The dress code issue is one near and dear to my heart. I've successfully lobbied to get dress codes changed to more casual ones at several places that I have worked, including where I work now (At the same place as Aaron Cutshall). I got the tie removed as part of the dress code when I started here.
To be blunt, I look like Mr. Clean with a van dyke beard. I have a shaven head (just helping nature along...) , I wear earrings. I remove my septum ring before I get out of my car each morning, and replace it at after work, as the dress code allows earrings, but not facial piercings, and I abide by that. My tattoos are, by design, not visible when I am wearing a polo shirt.
I have never, not once, been turned down for a job due to my appearance. I have caused a raised eyebrow or two, but I'm good at what I do, and everywhere I have ever worked, or would want to work, values competency over appearance.
January 9, 2009 at 11:30 am
D Smith (1/9/2009)
The dress code issue is one near and dear to my heart. I've successfully lobbied to get dress codes changed to more casual ones at several places that I have worked, including where I work now (At the same place as Aaron Cutshall). I got the tie removed as part of the dress code when I started here.
I have to say that I really appreciate what Dave managed to accomplish! While I will dress for the occasion and don't mind the occasional suit and tie, I don't like to do that each and every day! A tie does indeed stifle creativity somewhat.
And congrats to Dave for his recent promotion, too!! Well earned and well deserved.:smooooth:
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January 9, 2009 at 11:34 am
Shoeless Joe was shoeless a few times at a plant in Wisconsin, USA. There is more to a manufacturing facility than just the factory floor. In a way he was the Joe Black of some employees. Even the plant managers were prone to fear his arrival. (If they were getting lazy, or stupid). He was a sort of asynchronous reorganization effort. Again, what was he thinking?
January 9, 2009 at 11:40 am
Grant Fritchey (1/9/2009)
george sibbald (1/9/2009)
Grant Fritchey (1/9/2009
No imagination required. I have two kilts (so far) and I've done all sorts of work in them. I don't see the issue 😛
.
from your angle you wouldn't be able to. 🙂
EXACTLY!
I'm just glad we haven't met in person yet, or else I'd have a very scary image in my head right now!
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