March 1, 2011 at 11:31 am
amenjonathan (3/1/2011)
GSquared (3/1/2011)
It's nice that you can admit that you are incapable of error and I'm incapable of rational thought. And, yes, I worded that EXACTLY the way I intended to.Now you're just being rude. Chill out man. You're not helping debate on these forums by being an ***.
You know you're exactly right. We would never get along because you have an elitist attitude. I can't stand arrogant people who think they can do no wrong.
The main difference between us is I know we're both right. You from your perspective, me from mine. You are convinced I'm completely and immutably wrong because I disagree with your opinion.
You spend a series of posts calling me irrational, arrogant, unhireable, impossible to work with, and then call me rude for my comment about that attitude? Interesting. Adds support to the very statement you most dislike. Add this to your list of three: "I can't take criticism, and assume anyone who disagrees with my opinion is irrational, arrogant, rude and possibly insane." (Okay, I dubbed in that last one. You can leave it off.) You didn't include that, which means you also are falsifying the answers to your own question. You just can't trust anyone these days!
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 1, 2011 at 11:42 am
GSquared (3/1/2011)
... and possibly insane." (Okay, I dubbed in that last one. You can leave it off.)
But ... you are possibly insane 😉
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March 1, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Koen Verbeeck (3/1/2011)
GSquared (3/1/2011)
... and possibly insane." (Okay, I dubbed in that last one. You can leave it off.)But ... you are possibly insane 😉
What "possibly"? Better than outsane, if you ask me!
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 1, 2011 at 12:27 pm
GSquared (3/1/2011)
amenjonathan (3/1/2011)
GSquared (3/1/2011)
It's nice that you can admit that you are incapable of error and I'm incapable of rational thought. And, yes, I worded that EXACTLY the way I intended to.Now you're just being rude. Chill out man. You're not helping debate on these forums by being an ***.
You know you're exactly right. We would never get along because you have an elitist attitude. I can't stand arrogant people who think they can do no wrong.
The main difference between us is I know we're both right. You from your perspective, me from mine. You are convinced I'm completely and immutably wrong because I disagree with your opinion.
You spend a series of posts calling me irrational, arrogant, unhireable, impossible to work with, and then call me rude for my comment about that attitude? Interesting. Adds support to the very statement you most dislike. Add this to your list of three: "I can't take criticism, and assume anyone who disagrees with my opinion is irrational, arrogant, rude and possibly insane." (Okay, I dubbed in that last one. You can leave it off.) You didn't include that, which means you also are falsifying the answers to your own question. You just can't trust anyone these days!
Again rude and condecending. Same responses from the very beginning of this thread. That's what I really have a problem with. I actually take criticism quite well if it's done without attitide and with mutual respect. I like when people point out my mistakes. What I don't like is when they try and lord them over me and berate me with them. Two very different things.
But this further shows why the original question is still a very good one (even if it's worded incorrectly, or maybe because it's worded incorrectly). It shows the personality of the individual. How they respond to various situations. You can't ask that kind of question directly and ever expect a truthful response.
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March 1, 2011 at 1:22 pm
amen: Here was the discussion where it went personal and became rude:
amenjonathan (2/28/2011)
GSquared (2/28/2011)
amenjonathan (2/25/2011)
GSquared (2/25/2011)
amenjonathan (2/25/2011)
I've done a few interviews. A couple were for commercial analyst positions working directly for senior management. What I wanted to see is if the candidate was willing to fess up to flaws/failures and take responsibility for them. It's a very hard question to get a real answer for, because so many people lie. Many times it's hard to word or build a question for which the reason you're asking is not obvious. It's the only way to hedge the question to get more people to answer honestly.In one interview with a potential analyst I asked my standard question, "What are your three worst qualities". Again the real question is 'will you fess up to failure and take responsibility for it'. Anyway this candidate would not give me the truth. All her answers were like 'I'm a work-a-holic' or other 'bad traits that are really good'. So finally I asked her (not sure if this is ok) 'Ok tell me three things about yourself you think I don't want to hear'.
I kind of defeated the purpose of my own question. She had already answered that she wouldn't fess up. She didn't get the job.
Recruiters always tell you to prepare answers that are actually positive for that kind of question. I hate that game, since I'm just not interested.
Fully honest answers?
I'm chatty. Given the opportunity, I'll derail conversations and they'll go on indefinitely. I police it myself at work with reasonable effectiveness, but it can be a distration to myself and others if it gets out of hand.
I get bored easily by mindlessly repetitive work. Data entry and the like will take longer than it should, because I'll get distracted. One of the reasons I'm in the line of work I'm in is because I really hate repetitive work, so I tend to automate it and make the computer do it for me, wherever possible.
I have a really obscure sense of humor, and some people have trouble dealing with it. Mainly severe OCD cases, but a few merely neurotic types, will find my twists and perversions of the English language horrific. For example, I say things like, "we'll burn that bridge when we come to it". It's obviously a malapropistic mash-up of two different "bridge" cliches, and I find it amusing. I've had a couple of people spend prolonged periods of time trying to correct me on it, which amused me and put them in a state of semi-anguish.
You would probably accept those as honest points of negative self-assessment, which they are. BUT, I guarantee, they aren't "the worst three things about me".
...
Best bet in answering that kind of question is aim for just bad enough to be believed and to seem like a real answer, but not bad enough to matter. You have to know that's what most people are going to do, if they answer honestly at all. Which renders the question pointless, because the answers are just plays to keep in the game.
...
Those answers would be great. That's exactly what kind of answer I would be looking for. In the analytical group we were in, hiding errors was the easiest way for us to get in trouble, so we needed people who would bring issues to light even if the issues were created by themselves.
I also think it's fine for interviewees to ask any of the same questions. I mean they have to be happy too. The only issue would be not knowing what you could tell the person interviewing. I've never been in or given an interview where I had HR and legal with me to ask questions of.
Even though I openly stated that those are far from "the worst things about me" (which makes them a lie, effectively), and that they are cynically aimed at "playing" the interviewer, you still think, "Those answers would be great". Are you sure about that?
Here are real responses I've given to the "worst thing about you" question in real interviews:
"I hate that question. You're expected to try to lie about something that's fake-positive, like 'I have no life, so I tend to overwork', and I really don't feal like playing that game. What's your next question?"
and
"You're not my priest, so I'm going to decline to answer."
Both of those interviews resulted in job offers, so I must have done something right. All of them are delivered in a humorous tone of voice and with friendly body+facial language. Nothing hostile about them. But they don't answer the question.
The most honest answer possible to this kind of question? "I'm physically mortal, fragile, and ephemeral. I'll die someday. Before that happens, I will, at best, grow old and feeble." Trust me, it doesn't get worse than that, and it's completely true and brutally honest.
Wow if you gave me either of those here's what you're saying: "I'm going to be a pain in your back side. If you hire me, it's your own fault."
"I'm going to openly mock your question in an interview. Please give me the job." Not sure that's a good approach. Being honest and leaving smart *** comments at the door is probably best. Unless that's the real you every day, and then the question did it's job, and we look at the next candidate.
I pointed out that my replies had been friendly, humorous, and honest, you called me a "smart ***" and said I'm "a pain in your back side" and that hiring me would be a major flaw.
Please point out where, in my posts prior to you getting personal and insulting, I was in any way rude or arrogant towards you (or anyone else). Please quote "chapter and verse".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 1, 2011 at 2:07 pm
Actually I retract my comments about you. I re-read every single post, and I looked at them from a different perspective. They don't come off as rude or condecending. I agree I didn't pick up on your humor, so that is probably part of the cause.
But yes I agree with you on one thing for sure. The question works for me. It's not a trick. The purpose is not obvious, and neither are the answers. I understand that some people don't like questions that do not have obvious answers, motives, etc. That is not saying people who do not are less or more than others, just that they like explicit, defined situations. The question is purely meant to see how a person deals with a situation in which they must bring something negative about themselves to light.
Also, there must be some assumptions made in life, else we would never get anything done. I assume when I wake up in the morning and the Sun should be up that it will be up. When I see it, I assume it's the same Sun. I don't have to re-prove everything all the time. There are many situations in which you must make assumptions and generalizations, like when troubleshooting. You assume from past experience that 'x' is the most likely cause of 'y', so you check that first. Etc.
Another time, for me, is when I need to figure out the personality of someone. Yes the question does not give proper results in all cases, as some people will analyze the intent and give a lie that will 'pass the test', but many people won't. They'll say 'My worst work-related flaw is I work too much'. Something like that.
It's much better to be honest about shortcomings in an interview. If the manager won't hire you because of one of them, probably better anyway in the long run.
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March 1, 2011 at 2:25 pm
amenjonathan (3/1/2011)
Actually I retract my comments about you. I re-read every single post, and I looked at them from a different perspective. They don't come off as rude or condecending. I agree I didn't pick up on your humor, so that is probably part of the cause.But yes I agree with you on one thing for sure. The question works for me. It's not a trick. The purpose is not obvious, and neither are the answers. I understand that some people don't like questions that do not have obvious answers, motives, etc. That is not saying people who do not are less or more than others, just that they like explicit, defined situations. The question is purely meant to see how a person deals with a situation in which they must bring something negative about themselves to light.
Also, there must be some assumptions made in life, else we would never get anything done. I assume when I wake up in the morning and the Sun should be up that it will be up. When I see it, I assume it's the same Sun. I don't have to re-prove everything all the time. There are many situations in which you must make assumptions and generalizations, like when troubleshooting. You assume from past experience that 'x' is the most likely cause of 'y', so you check that first. Etc.
Another time, for me, is when I need to figure out the personality of someone. Yes the question does not give proper results in all cases, as some people will analyze the intent and give a lie that will 'pass the test', but many people won't. They'll say 'My worst work-related flaw is I work too much'. Something like that.
It's much better to be honest about shortcomings in an interview. If the manager won't hire you because of one of them, probably better anyway in the long run.
Makes sense.
I have questions I use for the same purpose, but worded based on the studies I've done on human behavior and emotional operation.
There's a whole range of body-language testing I do, which tells a lot about a person. (Watch for "immitation/mirroring", for example. Tells a lot.)
I have a set of questions and comments that test for basic personality type, based on predictive behavior sciences. You can, for example, learn a lot about a person in an IT interview by asking "What excites you about technology? What gets your juices flowing when you're working?" I've had answers ranging from, after about a two-minute pause, "well ... I think that there will probably still be tech jobs in the future ... so I kind of hope that I'll still be able to have work" (in a tone of almost complete apathy), up through, "I love that I can use it to prove that people are lying when they say that their computer is doing something wrong" (glint of vindictive joy in the eye), all the way up to "It's always in motion and really makes me stay on my toes! I love the challenge and the fun of it!" (said with enthusiastic voice and body). Guess which one of those will be the easiest to work with?
Different tools, same basic goal.
And honestly, better a less-than-perfect test than no test at all. Gotta agree with you on that. Also, you've been using it, and are experienced in its strengths and shortcomings, so it will work better for you than for someone who has less experience with it. So, do what works for you.
I've seen a guy with a flint axe carve beautiful woodworks. Flawed tool, but in the hands of an experienced master, gets an exceptional result. Even after that, I still consider it a flawed tool compared to a modern woodcarving kit. That applies, in my opinion, to that question.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 1, 2011 at 2:26 pm
amenjonathan (3/1/2011)
Actually I retract my comments about you. I re-read every single post, and I looked at them from a different perspective. They don't come off as rude or condecending. I agree I didn't pick up on your humor, so that is probably part of the cause.
My word, Watson. We've found a reasonable man! Go find that old guy with the lantern, we've found him! (That wasn't a mock, btw, it's nice to find a reasonable person.)
It's much better to be honest about shortcomings in an interview. If the manager won't hire you because of one of them, probably better anyway in the long run.
I believe, from most applicants point of view, that it's not so much losing to the "better person" that makes this an aggravating question, but losing to the "better liar".
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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March 1, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Craig Farrell (3/1/2011)
amenjonathan (3/1/2011)
Actually I retract my comments about you. I re-read every single post, and I looked at them from a different perspective. They don't come off as rude or condecending. I agree I didn't pick up on your humor, so that is probably part of the cause.My word, Watson. We've found a reasonable man! Go find that old guy with the lantern, we've found him! (That wasn't a mock, btw, it's nice to find a reasonable person.)
It's much better to be honest about shortcomings in an interview. If the manager won't hire you because of one of them, probably better anyway in the long run.
I believe, from most applicants point of view, that it's not so much losing to the "better person" that makes this an aggravating question, but losing to the "better liar".
As mentioned before, there are aspects of the Prisoner's Dilema (game theory) to interviewing, because you generally don't know who else is interviewing nor what their responses were.
If you interview, and think you did well, and get rejected, you are never, ever told why. There are litigation-prevention reasons for that (as commented about earlier here), but the fact is, you won't know. So you're stuck with, "did I fail to pick up on some negative indicator that I'd done poorly, or did someone better than me get it, or did someone lie and not get caught?" You'll probably never know, and that sticks it in the mind effectively eternally.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 2, 2011 at 12:07 am
GSquared (3/1/2011)
If you interview, and think you did well, and get rejected, you are never, ever told why. There are litigation-prevention reasons for that (as commented about earlier here), but the fact is, you won't know. So you're stuck with, "did I fail to pick up on some negative indicator that I'd done poorly, or did someone better than me get it, or did someone lie and not get caught?" You'll probably never know, and that sticks it in the mind effectively eternally.
They once told me why I wasn't hired. They did a "group conversation" between other applicants and me and 5 HR persons were watching us.
I was the only one who wasn't afraid to explain his view with the necessary arguments (hmmm, I've seen a person like that on this forum ;-)), so I was labeled "too dominant". The person that did get hired almost didn't say anything during the conversation.
I was glad I wasn't hired.
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
March 2, 2011 at 6:31 am
Koen Verbeeck (3/2/2011)
GSquared (3/1/2011)
If you interview, and think you did well, and get rejected, you are never, ever told why. There are litigation-prevention reasons for that (as commented about earlier here), but the fact is, you won't know. So you're stuck with, "did I fail to pick up on some negative indicator that I'd done poorly, or did someone better than me get it, or did someone lie and not get caught?" You'll probably never know, and that sticks it in the mind effectively eternally.They once told me why I wasn't hired. They did a "group conversation" between other applicants and me and 5 HR persons were watching us.
I was the only one who wasn't afraid to explain his view with the necessary arguments (hmmm, I've seen a person like that on this forum ;-)), so I was labeled "too dominant". The person that did get hired almost didn't say anything during the conversation.
I was glad I wasn't hired.
Actually, to partially refute my own assertion, I was once told why I wasn't hired. It was because "I was too strong a candidate". The recruiter wasn't sure why that was a bad thing either.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 2, 2011 at 6:44 am
GSquared (3/2/2011)
Actually, to partially refute my own assertion, I was once told why I wasn't hired. It was because "I was too strong a candidate". The recruiter wasn't sure why that was a bad thing either.
too strong a candidate = too expensive?
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
March 2, 2011 at 7:01 am
Koen Verbeeck (3/2/2011)
GSquared (3/2/2011)
Actually, to partially refute my own assertion, I was once told why I wasn't hired. It was because "I was too strong a candidate". The recruiter wasn't sure why that was a bad thing either.too strong a candidate = too expensive?
We'll never know. They didn't say anything more than that.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 2, 2011 at 7:06 am
GSquared (3/2/2011)
Koen Verbeeck (3/2/2011)
GSquared (3/2/2011)
Actually, to partially refute my own assertion, I was once told why I wasn't hired. It was because "I was too strong a candidate". The recruiter wasn't sure why that was a bad thing either.too strong a candidate = too expensive?
We'll never know. They didn't say anything more than that.
Maybe they didn't hire you because you were such a strong candidate, the self esteem of all the colleagues would instantly drop if you started working there 🙂
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
March 2, 2011 at 7:22 am
Koen Verbeeck (3/2/2011)
GSquared (3/2/2011)
Koen Verbeeck (3/2/2011)
GSquared (3/2/2011)
Actually, to partially refute my own assertion, I was once told why I wasn't hired. It was because "I was too strong a candidate". The recruiter wasn't sure why that was a bad thing either.too strong a candidate = too expensive?
We'll never know. They didn't say anything more than that.
Maybe they didn't hire you because you were such a strong candidate, the self esteem of all the colleagues would instantly drop if you started working there 🙂
Or the manager was worried that I'd get promoted over her. Who knows? Anything's possible.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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