January 16, 2009 at 8:07 am
Wow... lots of posts on this already...
I think there are lots of advantages to openness, and I would prefer it... but TO PREVENT RESENTMENTS, I would also institute a "POWER OF 10" policy... meaning no employee can earn more than 10 times another.
So, as in your situation, this in not typically done as a *change* to an existing company.
The "power of 10" approach is usually done when the owners of the company have a deep dedication to economic justice as a principle... and it clearly has disadvantages. Ben & Jerry's ice cream started out that way, but when they grew the company, went public, and wanted to hire an exceptional CEO ("Chief Euphoria Officer")... well, to offer a CEO salary that was competitive, they dropped the "power of 10" policy.
Link, FYI:
http://www.answers.com/topic/ben-jerry-s
I'd love to see the "power of 10" policy grow as a movement.
January 16, 2009 at 8:09 am
No way should the salaries be available....A salary is an agreement and negotiation between the organization and that individual only. A business owner knows or should know what he can afford to pay for an employee's skills and what it is worth to him. Between this number and the going rate for that skill in the job market is where the salary will land. I see zero benefit to opening up the salary information. It would be a nightmare to manage.
January 16, 2009 at 8:12 am
kwitzell (1/16/2009)
Personally I don't think it is any ones business what I make however, working for a city government, we don't get a choice; our salaries are very public knowledge. I do understand of course since we are paid from tax payer funds (I pay the same taxes!) any monies expended by the city should be pubic knowledge. However, it was very disconcerting this past year to see not only our salaries, but we were ALL identified by name in the local newspaper. Not sure why it was necessary to use our names and not our position but I guess someone figured it was a good idea.
My wife works for the county here and their info was posted not long ago. Fortunately here the newsies printed only the highest value makers to an extent but might be because of the town size, a complete list probably would have been the paper for the day. Not sure why they feel this need other than to try to stir things up for future news as anyone can look the information up themselves if was that important. I could see if someone making more than $100,000 jumped more than 10% as being news worthy as there should be a solid justification to back it and the public should be aware but a 2% increase isn't even worth mentioning as that is the dead average anyway.
January 16, 2009 at 8:12 am
Remaks (1/16/2009)
As far as competition, how can you compete without knowing where the other players are? If the only information I have in a race is the clock, but I don't know where the other runners are or what their times are, what will compel me to give that extra burst of speed instead of slacking because I think I have the advantage. Hiding salary information in my opinion hinders competition and removes the biggest potential motivator for most people.
Interesting metaphor, but I think this is exactly the problem. What is the focus, the competition (win the race, no matter what the timeclock says, if you come in first, you win) or the race (win the race by doing the best that you can do, regardless of what the rest of the field is doing)?
If we can see the salaries, they become the driving force for working, if we can't see the salaries the WORK is the reason for working. If the work you do is not interesting enough or important enough for you to put in the extra effort to do it right or better than the next guy, then go do something else. I.E. The best races are the ones you run against yourself.
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
January 16, 2009 at 8:13 am
All it takes to understand why hide salary is to put yourself as the Founder of a firm.
How much would you pay yourself? how much would you pay those that work for you ?
What is "fair" for some is not for others, we are human and in every sense of the work we tend to have very different opinions. "Hiding" that sensitive information is critical if you want to survive in a competitive atmosphere!
-Noel
* Noel
January 16, 2009 at 8:15 am
This is most interesting: I imagine how it is to live in a world with no secret information at all. An open and secretless society would at least have prevented the current credit crash, if the "greedy ones" could have been monitored. Maybe it could stop a lot of criminal manipulations.
The problem is always how to get from the existing system to a new open society. Maybe all it needs is a personal accesscard for one's bank account, social security services, etc.
For a period of some months, I lived in an experimental community where it was impossible to have a secret or tell lies: one could actually "feel" somebodies lies, so all of us stopped having secrets. This was an extremely liberating experience: being totally honest in a respectful way did give a mega reward in terms of life energy.
January 16, 2009 at 8:19 am
I have always been in favor of an open salary policy but think it must be done in a way that is very objective. This objectivity would be very difficult, but could be done...
I think there must be open reasons for any disparity in salaries between individuals. Each employee should be paid according to their value to a company (perhaps both potential value and actual value) but this value should be based upon facts and explanation that should also be open to debate and discussion.
This must be well thought out ahead of time and really forces management and the workforce to be involved and stay informed about all aspects of the business.
January 16, 2009 at 8:28 am
Here in rainy Washington state, the local paper lists ALL local city, county and public school employees and their wages on the paper web site, and keeps it updated! No guessing here.......
Stop and think about what this does for you as someone considering changing jobs. Can you make more at County XYZ or agency 5 or for a different school district? This practice may actually help people decide to stay or find a better job in the next town. It also can give some people the incentive to work harder, learn more, and to apply themselves to keep their current position.
Some of the county folks where I work were distressed that the information was posted. But we work for the citizens and all county business is open to public scrutiny, including wages. We all got over it...eventually.
January 16, 2009 at 8:29 am
I think it might be a nice thing for myself as I am naturally very curious and I could care less what my co-workers make. To me I agreed to a certain pay for a certain job, if my co-worker is getting more pay for the same job, good for him, it doesn't bother me.
However, I would have to agree with several of the people in this thread that there are many who don't see it that way so I think it might not be such a great thing to do. However, we do have almost monthly company meetings where we get some details on how well our company is doing overall.
January 16, 2009 at 8:30 am
AndyD (1/16/2009)
The general consensus seems to be that knowing your co-workers salaries would lead to jealousy and resentment. This would only be true if pay is unfair.To argue this a slightly different way - in most Western countries, women are paid between 20% and 30% less than men for doing the same job. This is completely unfair, and unacceptable. The only way to stamp out this practice is for everyone's salary to be known.
Ignorance is not always bliss.
Andy
This is what tips the scale for me. I am the most experienced/skilled person in my department at what I do, the one everyone comes to when they need to know how to solve some problem etc. I'm also female. I certain I am underpaid with respect to men at the same skill and experience level, and would be very curious to see if even if men who are less skilled and experienced are making more than me.
Ignorance may be bliss, but if I am making significantly less than someone else just because I have two X chromosomes, that's just not fair, and the only way that this kind of gender discrimination will become a thing of the past is for it to be revealed when it is occurring.
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
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January 16, 2009 at 8:31 am
Plain and simple... I consider my salary to be in the world of private information. I would sue the pants off of any company that made my salary public in any way, shape or form. Pay scales by job, no problem... but publish my salary, then like the little ol' lady for Dunkin' Donuts said... "See you in court, Sonny!"
--Jeff Moden
January 16, 2009 at 8:33 am
Open and honest communication about pay makes everyone responsible. companies don't like it because they know that they can get some employees on the cheap. In the end it is more expensive for them. It makes things harder, more concrete, and more clear.
Knowing what you are worth and why is important for everyone to know. But people hide behind personal and professional inadequecies.
Do people get paid less because they act like a child? Yes. How do you tell people this? Very carefully. Strong management and clear process for questioning is a must to fend off lawsuits.
Open pay goes against this culture of secrecy and hunger for power. It takes out both. The judgement has to be placed squarely on the management, which means a strong management group has to be in place....as well as a clear and dedicated process for asking for raises.
Pay people what they are worth, and be open about it. If someone disagrees then give them a process and a method for changing it. But again, the caveat is the people you want to get rid of.
In essence, open pay is a different kind of business...formal, agressive, with strong management willing to tell people the truth.
January 16, 2009 at 8:33 am
I think there are many benefits to having salaries public and no downside. Remaks is correct with the comments that it is better to " work from a position of knowledge versus speculation" I used to work at a consulting company where the consultants salary's were negotiated and completely open. We had consultants making anywhere betweeen $30000 and $180000. This was based on their skills, experience and negotiating ability. We had at least one instance where one consultant making about $40000 quit primarily because he felt he could get better pay elsewhere. He told me after he left he liked his job but the company payed too little. He wasn't aware that many consultants with his same skill level and experience were getting $10000 to $20000 more than he was. Had he been aware of this he could have renegotiated his pay. Had management known the primary reason for his leaving was pay I'm sure they would have offered him more. Ignorance is not bliss, ignorance can be dangerous and counter-productive. We lost a good employee and in turn he lost a good job because everyone was too afraid to discuss money. If someone who is working at a sub-par level is making more than me then sure I might be resentful but I can use that information. Surely management does not want to create resentments like this and can be prevailed upon to correct this in some way. Mangement that fails to do this can expect to lose employees. However, I must also realize that I don't know everything about someone else's job and perhaps others don't realize the benefits of my job or why many DBA's can command such a good salary. So unless I understand the job market well I may have no good reason to resent someone else higher salary.
Francis
January 16, 2009 at 8:47 am
fhanlon (1/16/2009)
Surely management does not want to create resentments like this and can be prevailed upon to correct this in some way. Mangement that fails to do this can expect to lose employees. However, I must also realize that I don't know everything about someone else's job and perhaps others don't realize the benefits of my job or why many DBA's can command such a good salary. So unless I understand the job market well I may have no good reason to resent someone else higher salary.
I support openness as far as possible, up to identifying individuals and their specific salaries. That's where pay grades such as in the military and for unions are fair. As long as everyone coming in knows what to expect, they (usually) don't get resentful. A two star general knows he generally makes more than a one star general.
The problem with IT is that skills are so individual and specialized, how do you get a scale set up? Or is that where bonuses come in. So if all the junior DBA's made a base salary of $40,000 a year (totally made up numbers, may or may not be based on reality, so only as an example), but after the year end review, DBA #1 got a bonus of 1K (or nothing) because he was always late, left early all the time, and took really long lunches, while DBA #2 got a bonus of 5K because he came in on time or early, often worked past 5pm, and often ate lunch at his desk, and in general accomplished more than DBA #1. There would be less justification for a complaint from DBA #1 because everyone started out the same, and DBA #2 obviously accomplished more.
Gaby A.
Gaby
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
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January 16, 2009 at 8:47 am
I have a different perspective than many of the blogs I have read. It’s the employer’s money and the employer can do with it whatever he wants. If he wants to be more generous to some individuals than others, that is his prerogative.
When you are highered, the amount you earn is a contract between the employer and the employee and no one else.
If overtime, the employee thinks he should be paid more, the employee can renegotiate with the employer. It has been my experience, if you can demonstrate that you add value to the company or that you now have more responsibility or that your salary is below the market value, an employer will give you a raise. If renegotiations do not meet your expectations, its a free country, perhaps it is time to look for an employer who will pay more.
As IT professionals, we don’t go into salary negotiations blindly. There are many salary surveys and other material that shows the high, low, and median range for individuals with your skill set. The best advice I could give, is go into salary negotiations fully aware of options.
As far as posting salaries, its no one else’s business what an employee and the employer have agreed upon. I agree with the longstanding common wisdom that salary is your own personal business.
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