July 15, 2011 at 3:07 pm
TravisDBA (7/15/2011)
Craig Farrell (7/15/2011)
If they can find the support cheaper and it is as effective, they have more money for research tools, marketing techniques, and golf fees. If we want to fix the outsourcing problem, we need to fix ourselves. We need to provide better support, or we need to start working cheaper.To the fat cats running companies who are playing golf on the profits, most them could care less about better support. Run cheaper, irregardless of support, is what they are really after, no doubt. It is about their bottom line. An American worker just can't work as cheap as an Indian can, no way. It's not even a fair comparison to expect it. 😀
Yes and no. If the American worker has both less issues that then cost him profits (or customer relations) and does the work equivalent of two or three of them (communication, availability, time issues), then the value is there.
The majority of work I've seen coming out of China and India leaves a lot to be desired. One of the primary problems is communication. I don't mean ESL, either, I mean sit-down meetings to nail down requirements and get them right in the first few tries. I mean understanding the business itself and learning the priorities and importance to attribute to issues. Can a manger do that? Sure. But you've now increased costs for the 'translator' to the team.
Add to that the shoddy code I see a lot of the time (India's gotten better over the last 8 years or so) and the horrendous optimization, and my vendor's code starts looking A+ awesome.
There's a tradeoff on the cost, and it's overall profitability, and it'll apply to both sides of the Dev/Admin fence.
BI work, in particular, is one that almost can't be offshored, mostly due to the heavy integration it has to have with business assets.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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July 15, 2011 at 3:13 pm
I'm usually a Republic but neither party is interested in getting us working again and is more interested in the money going into their own pockets.
When times get rough like they are now, we need all the help we can get, regardless of where it comes from or which party you belong to.
Write us back in another year and tell us if you feel the same way. You, too, might be one of us having to cut your pay drastically to keep working. Free market is a wonderful thing, especially when everyone but you are poor and jobless.
July 15, 2011 at 3:14 pm
billiam904 (7/15/2011)
At the moment, it is safer to stay at the job I am at. None of my old contacts are hiring either.
That's a decision you have to make. With your other concerns, I can understand the fear, but in this industry you either advance or stagnate. You've allowed them to do this to you by finding security more important then your financial gains.
I can't really move because I own a home without a mortgage here and my wife would rather forget my name than move. LOL.
As do I. Rent it out, use the rental money towards another mortgage. There's a number of options. The wife... well... I can't really argue with that one. From what I understand they always win. 😀
After 9/11, I saw the programming jobs go farther south for about a year. But, there was no outsourcing going on then, at least not as widespread as now.
It was there, but it was primarily programming/app development jobs that were outsourcing as people tried to avoid the death of the dot.com bubble.
Like you, I advises those without a job to upgrade theitr skills as it is never a bad idea. But, at age 46, with a family and full-time job, it is not as easy as I once thought it was. At the end of my workday, I'm ready for bed and do not have the brain capacity to learn anything new.
Which, to be blunt, basically means the new DR technology is beyond you, new best practices and large data optimization techniques are not being researched, and I couldn't use you in a capacity other then AS a low-II, being hand-held and directed to exactly what is needed. You're in the right price bracket.
And... I am also a disabled person.
Sorry to hear.
So, it is 10 times easier for a non-disabled person to get a job. It is just a fact.
Can't argue that. It's assumed, like it or not, that someone with a disability will have a harder time keeping up attendance and the like then a non-disabled person. True or not, it's an automatic assumption. I've worked hard to keep that bias out of my head and it still can sneak in on occassion. Sorry about that, but you're right.
Unlike other disabled professionals I know, I'v e been able to get and keep jobs since I became disabled in 1997 simply because of my experience and my track record. But, outsourcing makes it that much more difficult for me because there are less jobs and less employers willing to give a disabled person a shot.
True enough, but that's really across the board at the low end of the ability spectrum. Why hire a junior when you can hire eight that need JUST as much hand holding but (in theory) their managers overseas are paying for the training. As to middle of the road, I haven't seen that as much, but honestly, I don't inspect jobs at that level often. I really only see those when I'm doing reviews for some of my consulting firms to keep up the networking.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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July 15, 2011 at 3:45 pm
Ah... The arrogance if the youth... Craig, I want you to remember the words you spoke this day when something happens to you and you find yourself no longer as healthy and perfect and no one is willing to give you a chance. And, when you are older and your kids and/pr grand kids steal your land and put you away in a home where no one ever visits you. Your arrogance will do you no good then, will it. Enjoy it while you can.
July 15, 2011 at 4:10 pm
billiam904 (7/15/2011)
Ah... The arrogance if the youth... Craig, I want you to remember the words you spoke this day when something happens to you and you find yourself no longer as healthy and perfect and no one is willing to give you a chance. And, when you are older and your kids and/pr grand kids steal your land and put you away in a home where no one ever visits you. Your arrogance will do you no good then, will it. Enjoy it while you can.
Kids, what is this evil you speak of? I plan on retiring in an old folks home next to a strip club, where someone else's kids take my money and my future wife is working until I meet her.
I'm actually not that young, but I am 10 years behind you, so I guess it's perception. As to your comments, though, I'm relatively unhealthy but I do get plenty of chances, if my email spam is any indication. 😉 Most of my work comes merely from reputation.
I'm sorry if you find me arrogant. I think I know where you felt that from me, and there is perhaps a touch of it there. However, it's a fact of life in the tech world that either you keep up or you get turtled. My father was a top end Cobol programmer who didn't keep up. He currently greets for Wal-mart. He's not dumber, he's not less able to determine logic, the technology merely got away from him too fast.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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July 15, 2011 at 6:11 pm
sturner (7/15/2011)
TravisDBA (7/15/2011)
Less government control is a better idea.
Yeah, right... lets just let the free market continue along with their corrupt CEO's continuing to line their pockets, while millions get laid off. How's that working for everyone so far?:-D
Politicians are not corrupt? lol what rock are you living under? When a business makes bad decisions they go out of business (unless big government steps in, prints money and bails them out!), when their CEOs commit fraud they go to jail (i.e. Ken Lay, Bernie Madoff,... etc. etc.). When government [politicians] makes bad decisions they just print more money, or raise some more taxes or pass new laws. When politcians break the law they get "censured" by their buddies and get to keep their million dollar pensions and lifetime health insurance. Even if they have to resign for being a total jerk they still get their lifetime benefits.
No, government has proven to be very poor stewards of tax dollars and the faith and trust of the people. Government produces no product, it only consumes capital from private businesses and individuals and uses it to buy votes to insure its longevity and control over evey aspect of your life.
So what's the alternative besides those rotten two choices? Total anarchy? Wait a minute....on second thought, maybe tearing the whole system apart and starting over might not be a bad idea. To the revolution!!!!!!:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
July 15, 2011 at 7:20 pm
TravisDBA (7/15/2011)
sturner (7/15/2011)
TravisDBA (7/15/2011)
Less government control is a better idea.
Yeah, right... lets just let the free market continue along with their corrupt CEO's continuing to line their pockets, while millions get laid off. How's that working for everyone so far?:-D
Politicians are not corrupt? lol what rock are you living under? When a business makes bad decisions they go out of business (unless big government steps in, prints money and bails them out!), when their CEOs commit fraud they go to jail (i.e. Ken Lay, Bernie Madoff,... etc. etc.). When government [politicians] makes bad decisions they just print more money, or raise some more taxes or pass new laws. When politcians break the law they get "censured" by their buddies and get to keep their million dollar pensions and lifetime health insurance. Even if they have to resign for being a total jerk they still get their lifetime benefits.
No, government has proven to be very poor stewards of tax dollars and the faith and trust of the people. Government produces no product, it only consumes capital from private businesses and individuals and uses it to buy votes to insure its longevity and control over evey aspect of your life.
So what's the alternative besides those rotten two choices? Total anarchy? Wait a minute....on second thought, maybe tearing the whole system apart and starting over might not be a bad idea. To the revolution!!!!!!:-D
Revolutions are messy. Businesses get destroyed, cities get destroyed, lives get destroyed, and life for the average person gets a whole lot worse in the short term. I'd just as soon avoid all that, thanks.
July 15, 2011 at 8:48 pm
Revolutions are messy. Businesses get destroyed, cities get destroyed, lives get destroyed, and life for the average person gets a whole lot worse in the short term. I'd just as soon avoid all that, thanks.
In the famous words of Thomas Jefferson "Every generation needs a new revolution". Our country was born throtigh revolution, and it might just have to go through it again to save it. It might not be avoidable. Things are too far gone to change through using just diatribe. People are ready, and they are fed up. They feel its time for action. I hear this every day. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
July 17, 2011 at 6:29 am
The endless pursuit of cheaper goods strikes me as a typical case of propping a ladder against a branch then sawing the wrong side of the ladder!
In the UK some offshored jobs are coming back simply because the quality of the outsourced work was much poorer. Yes it was cheaper but the quality drop outweighed the benefit.
One very important point is that the quality was low, not because it was done on the cheap, but because to be successful with oursourcing the people managing the outsourced resource need to be very high calibre.
If you are a developer who has worked in a company for a while you can apply your skills to a subject you know well. If business requirements are a bit flaky, or if a system to which new software is having to integrate has "foibles" then how would an outsourced agency know that? For that matter a contractor is in only a slightly better position.
An outsourced resource will only deliver what they were told to deliver. Crap requirements = crap delivery.
In my career I have seen people made redundant who were actually fulfilling an important role but no-one knew what it was they were doing until they left. All of a sudden a supplier who relies on a specific piece of information being delivered every week rings up to complain that it is late and absolutely noone has any idea what he's talking about. At worst you lose a good supplier with a reputable product. But somehow the organisation trundles on.
Ultimately no-one is indespensable. If Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison popped their clogs tomorrow it would be news for a week, wobble their respective empires for 6 months and then the world would go on. May not seem fair but tough, pick yourself up, dust yourself down and march forward!
July 17, 2011 at 8:25 am
In the UK some offshored jobs are coming back simply because the quality of the outsourced work was much poorer. Yes it was cheaper but the quality drop outweighed the benefit.
I have been saying this for years, but American company executives only see their bottom lines, They have tunnel vision when it comes to this, trust me. When you outsource/offshore most of your development over to a country like India to a time zone that is 10-11 hours different than your location, who is working when you're staff is sleeping. Who is speaking dialects that are so stong your staff has problems communicating with them. Whose telephone systems are so archaic that they are constantly having issues with dropping connections in countless conference calls. Then, is it any wonder that quality suffers? Of course not, but that is not way the American executives see it . What they see is they can hire 5-10 Indian workers to one American wotker. Lets say you pay an American IT worker an actual salary of $60000-70000 a year, and they can offshore that same salary overseas and get 5 Indian workers at $5000-10000 a year a piece and the company pockets the difference. Do you think that they are going to consider quality first? Or their profit margins? Wake up American workers! this concerns us all!:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
July 17, 2011 at 9:24 am
TravisDBA (7/17/2011)
In the UK some offshored jobs are coming back simply because the quality of the outsourced work was much poorer. Yes it was cheaper but the quality drop outweighed the benefit.
I have been saying this for years, but American company executives only see their bottom lines, They have tunnel vision when it comes to this, trust me. When you outsource/offshore most of your development over to a country like India to a time zone that is 10-11 hours different than your location, who is working when you're staff is sleeping. Who is speaking dialects that are so stong your staff has problems communicating with them. Whose telephone systems are so archaic that they are constantly having issues with dropping connections in countless conference calls. Then, is it any wonder that quality suffers? Of course not, but that is not way the American executives see it . What they see is they can hire 5-10 Indian workers to one American wotker. Lets say you pay an American IT worker an actual salary of $60000-70000 a year, and they can offshore that same salary overseas and get 5 Indian workers at $5000-10000 a year a piece and the company pockets the difference. Do you think that they are going to consider quality first? Or their profit margins? Wake up American workers! this concerns us all!:-D
What you fail to grasp is that companies are competing in a world economy now. The US isn;t the only country that buys things. Companies begin to move overseas because they can produce product and sell it without having to ship it to their consumers. They also gravitate to where they have a better climate in which to operate. Unlike the US government, business cannot long operate in a deficit mode. That cannot borrow or print money endlessly. At some point they have to make a profit. If the company you work for does not make profit, at some point you won't have a job.
From what you say, it sounds like you despise the word "profit" but that is what makes the world go around like it or not. If the US fails to provide an environment where business (large or small) cannot thrive and make a profit they will go to locations where they can. That is why companies are moving out of California and to other states that have a more business friendly climate, have lower taxes and regulations and less unions.
The socialist utopia thing doesn't work and what is happening right now in the US is proof.
The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival.
July 17, 2011 at 11:36 am
bopeavy (7/15/2011)
J Thaddeus Klopcic
$50k - $75k plus nice benefits isn't enough? Sorry -- our systems can't spin gold from straw.
$50K is not much when most of the time it cost more than that to live.
This is a personal decision. The median income in the US is just below $50k, so half the families do it.
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July 17, 2011 at 11:41 am
Jim Sleeman-388184 (7/15/2011)
Editorial is a bit dated. Since 2008 a large number of good IT people have been out of work for longer then a year. I was nearly one of them, but I got a temp position, after 9 months, that turned into a full time slot. Only problem is I had to take a 40% pay cut.Perhaps Steve would want to rethink that last line.
Definitely dated (circa 2006), but I think if you are out of work for more than a year, it's worth considering if you might need to look elsewhere, or change careers. Maybe you are not suited, or skilled enough, for the position you are looking for. Not saying you are, but consider it.
It's entirely possible that you have had bad luck, or there isn't anything close to you, but evaluate where you stand with yourself honestly.
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July 17, 2011 at 11:45 am
What you fail to grasp is that companies are competing in a world economy now.
If rhat means keeping the same broken status quo we have right now amidst record enemployment and record foreclosures, then I will ask a question I asked before: " How's that working for everybody?":-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
July 17, 2011 at 11:57 am
Maybe you are not suited, or skilled enough, for the position you are looking for. Not saying you are, but consider it.
.
😀
With all due respect, unless I know someone's personal situation when it comes to finding work in this miserable economy right now, I rend to refrain from saying things like this. But, maybe it's just me. There are people with 20 years of experience and graduate degrees currently out of work right now. Skills is not the main issue in finding work right now. The work just isn't there like it used to be. Companies are being forced to cut their staff back for other reasons than not being able to find skilled people.. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
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