November 16, 2015 at 9:13 am
I suppose it is within the realm of the conceivable. However it does nothing to reduce the culpability of management. Either they knew (v bad) or they didn't (just as bad, if not worse). Having worked in Germany for a German company, I find it inconceivable that management did not direct this. When I further take into account VW's reputation as a hyper-controlled company, I will require an extraordinary accumulation of evidence before I allow the blame to settle on a few software engineers.
November 16, 2015 at 11:31 am
Management throwing people under the bus. Again. Nothing more.
This a thousand times! Management can hide behind corporate personhood and enjoy the golden parachutes while the underlings lose jobs due to the malfeasance.
November 16, 2015 at 12:51 pm
Sean Redmond (11/16/2015)
This argument suggests that the management structure of VW was completely incompetent rather than being simply greedy, immoral bastards, who were solely concentrating on profit (and bonus) maximisation. Simply on the grounds that the entire management structure benefitted handsomely (and least in the short term) and because managers tend to be clever people, I am disinclined to believe this argument in this case.
I tend to agree with this assessment.
November 16, 2015 at 1:11 pm
erikb 90350 (11/16/2015)
The software controls a physical machine. Are you saying that the finest German engineering goes into crafting every part of the VW except the emissions system which is handled by Joe the intern? Are you saying that this problem was able to walk through every level of QA that VW has without anyone noticing? VW is a massive company -- are you saying no one anywhere noticed anything was wrong?
Not just that something was wrong, but that the engineered design didn't work and then all of a sudden it did? Someone certainly asked a question.
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November 16, 2015 at 2:13 pm
The VW hack would have required an intimate knowledge of the technology managing the emissions system, along with a lot of testing to make sure it worked nearly 100% of the time. And not have an impact on other systems. Given the scarce resources found in companies, and the demand from management about every action, how could they not know?
Or, if they did not know, then they were really incompetent. So, take your pick, totally incompetent, or a knowing accomplice.
The more you are prepared, the less you need it.
November 16, 2015 at 3:37 pm
Developers can certainly change something without management knowing. But...
I just don't believe that VW suffered at the hands of rogue developers as has been stated. First, one has to ask who benefits the most. The truth is that management benefits the most. And as others have pointed out - the software doesn't sit in a vacuum, it has to work with the hardware. And someone knew that the settings were being tweaked.
The thing is that the CEO was replaced by an insider. And the new CEO quickly throws some developers under a bus. Quite honestly, I think if someone bothers digging they will quickly find the new CEO was very connected to the whole thing. Again - who benefits the most? (Perhaps the new CEO.)
November 17, 2015 at 1:34 am
Sean Redmond - Obviously you haven't flown an aircraft - take off and landing are the trickiest parts of the art of flying and this hijackers had no intention of carrying out takoffs or landings , just learning to navigate and letting the autopilot maintain stable flight until the last minute
.. but then again the moon landings were faked wern't they? they had to get the budget for the time-tunnel through somehow;-)
November 17, 2015 at 1:48 am
I don't think that the moon-landings were faked.
My understanding of modern commercial aircraft is that they are so complex, that simple training with light aircraft is by no means enough to allow one to control a commercial liner. Perhaps anyone with flying experience would care to set me straight.
The pilots that I have known have all told me how long it takes to control aircraft and how much of a world of a difference between light aircraft and commercial aircraft there is. I agree that landing and take-off require the majority of the pilots' skill, however controlling a plane without auto-pilot is not at all easy either. I just found the explanation very, very implausible.
November 17, 2015 at 2:13 am
Sean,
To get to know an A380 inside and out to be able to handle it in all normal situations takes an experienced commercial pilot many hours.
However, the basic principles and practice of ultralight and A380 are identical. I learnt to fly on a single engine wind-in-your-face ultralight with no flaps, trim or brakes with a MTOW < 400kg and I have flown heavier single engined aircraft (Warrior, Tomahawk). Controls plus basic instruments were identical.
I'm surprised they needed 3 weeks training.
November 17, 2015 at 2:37 am
Hi Howard,
Fair enough. I stand corrected.
Thanks for the clarification,
Sean.
November 17, 2015 at 12:17 pm
"I must watch Thunderbird again. "
Sean, as an old James Bond fan, I think you mean Thunderball. 🙂
November 17, 2015 at 2:19 pm
Ian Scarlett (11/16/2015)
Maybe not quite as bad as the VW situation, but Peugeot were caught a few years ago manipulating the odometer on vehicles. Every so often, it would add a few miles to the odometer (e.g. after opening and closing the door a certain number of times).When caught, they explained that "it more accurately represents the true wear and tear on a vehicle".
And that my friends tells you everything you need to know about data quality.
November 17, 2015 at 5:32 pm
If you were smart enough to develop this "defeat device", wouldn't you want to tell someone about it ie your boss and perhaps snag a pay rise? If your boss, thought it was a good idea, he would promote it to his boss and so on all the way up the chain. At some point in the chain, someone would say "let's try it" and plug it into a few cars sent for testing. The cars pass the test, so the device gets incorporated into the standard suite of software. At this point in time, a lot of people know about this but not in every detail. They have been rewarded and the invention is quietly forgotten about. This goes on for years until someone, who is not the regulator decides to do some independent testing. They identify the discrepancy and give VW a chance to fix it, but VW don't know there is a problem to fix, because the device has been standard for years and everyone who knew about it is not in the information loop.
The rest is history.
The question now is how VW is going to handle it. They can't just find the lowly developers and fire them ignominiously. German Labour laws will inhibit that and besides there's always the media, who would pay millions for the inside scoop. My guess is that it will be handled discreetly with big payoffs and VW will come up with a story that the culprits have been dealt with and they are now focussing on the future.
November 17, 2015 at 11:28 pm
Yes sir, credit to you, Thunderball it is. I mis-remembered the name.
I like the early James Bond movies, although I haven't seen this one for quite a while.
October 29, 2019 at 12:23 pm
Yes sir, credit to you, Thunderball it is. I mis-remembered the name.
I like the early James Bond movies, although I haven't seen this one for quite a while.
Heh... "Thunderbird" might be just as appropriate. That old kid's series had marionettes involved, just like VW, et al.
--Jeff Moden
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