September 21, 2012 at 3:53 am
...Yes CELKO is soetimes too strict, and his anwesrs are based on ideal world situation, but why Eugene is so care about it? [/color]
I wasn't arround for a while here... :hehe:
Being myself quite relaxed, I'm fine with people being strict or even too strict. And it's nothing wrong to base answers on ideal world situation. It has nothing to do with above at all. Even being rude (I like some really polite people from west :hehe:, who does call it nicely as Zen Buddhism method to remedy lapses of concentration), it's sustainable.
Knowing his age and love for punch-cards and Cobol, I do realise that it may be impossible for him to learn and understand new technology. Also, his cultural/professional teacher background (or just a character) may not allow him, as a teacher, to admit wrongs...
For now I would be happy if Joe could comprehend very little thing: when he offers his private opinion on a subject not to use plural form "WE". Why?
Having his weight in the industry hard to dispute, especially for young and non-experienced SQL Server developers, exposing and insisting on theoretical ("ideal") concepts of Relational Database design, may and will result in very bad real-life implementations.
Especially it applies to his stance on using MS SQL Server product features. And one of them discussed here: IDENTITY.
He has his strong opinion on this subject in-printed in his books eg "SQL For Smarties Advanced SQL Programming". But, this particular one, is not supported by most SQL Server experts (eg. Microsoft top SQL consultants).
You will find a lot of real-life DB implementations which would not be possible without use of surrogate/artificial keys, and IDENTITY in SQL Server is designed especially for that purpose (SQL2012 implementation of Oracle like sequences gives even more into this).
Many Relational Database experts strongly disagree with J.Celco about the use of surrogat keys for PKs. For example, in Datawarehouse environment with dimension models - surrogate keys are a must. R. Kimbal, quite an expert in DW concepts ;-), never even discussed anything other than meaningless numbers (surrogate keys) for PKs.
However it's not only applied to Datawarehouses...
I, personally, prefer to use of surrogate keys for PKs in all databases I design (with really few exceptions) - because it does help!
So, his "WE" is highly inappropriate, especially due to the fact, that he never managed to come up with workable solutions of his style for very common real-life situations. Here we've discussed People and Company entities for database which should support international kind of business. But there are much more. For you I have a good example: What kind of primary key will you have in the Address table, knowing that address can be in any of Former USSR republics (eg. ones who are part of EU and ones who are part of Golden Horde :-D)?
Do you have any universal natural key in mind for this? I'm absolutely sure that there is none even in USA. Will you ever have one? I don't think so...
I just wonder, some new-starter SQL dev, see his answer, see the SQL Server database in his company and will start to argue database design with his signor colleagues basing his arguments on J.Celko ideas (and using JC style :-)). How long it will take to get him back on job market? :w00t:
And the last one: your English is fine enough! Most people here should understand you with no problem. As they do, usually, understand me...
September 21, 2012 at 3:55 am
ScottPletcher (9/20/2012)
...Set up a "hotline" so people could report any comments negative to Obama"Care". [Leftists ALWAYS lie with the official names for laws. Even in theory, although we know it won't work, the law can only provide insurance coverage not medical care. They are not the same.]
...
I don't think that is the forum to discuss politics, especially as it will definitely grape diametrically antagonist positions...
I for example, also prefer RIGHT, but Mitt Romney looks like moron to me...
Have you heard about theoretics William Godwin and Mikhail Bakunin and their theory practical implementer Nestor Makhno ? :hehe:
And what it has to do with SQL?
Are you working on voting system database? If yes, you have a chance to write the right INSERT/UPDATE/DELETE queries to get the results you prefer...
:w00t:
September 21, 2012 at 4:06 am
ScottPletcher (9/20/2012)
...Celko's constant references to "punch cards" and "COBOL" are anachronistic -- most people now likely have little idea what he is "talking"/ranting about.
.
I'm not as old as J.Celko, but I have not only coded using punch-cards I still hold a banch of them - very useful as bookmarks 😉
BTW, COBOL is still in use across wide range of industries which offer sometimes very lucrative positions and contracts...
I think he himself, has a very little idea of what he is "talking"/ranting about.
:hehe:
September 21, 2012 at 6:23 am
Eugene Elutin (9/21/2012)
BTW, COBOL is still in use across wide range of industries which offer sometimes very lucrative positions and contracts...
Yes, the main application at my company is a series of DB2 databases on z/OS that was implemented in 1995. Any minor change is a huge pain because we only have a few people left who can program COBOL. It's not like the kids in college see it as an up and coming language.
Greg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
The glass is at one half capacity: nothing more, nothing less.
September 21, 2012 at 6:42 am
Greg Snidow (9/21/2012)
Eugene Elutin (9/21/2012)
BTW, COBOL is still in use across wide range of industries which offer sometimes very lucrative positions and contracts...
Yes, the main application at my company is a series of DB2 databases on z/OS that was implemented in 1995. Any minor change is a huge pain because we only have a few people left who can program COBOL. It's not like the kids in college see it as an up and coming language.
Just tell these kids that it can pay around 600£ (900$) per day with not much competition on the market, it may change someone mind...
It's all case of DEMAND-SUPPLY-REMUNERATION :hehe:
September 21, 2012 at 8:25 am
Closing this as it has gotten out of hand.
If you disagree with an answer, please feel free to disagree without using insults or name calling. This is a professional forum (outside of the "anything not about SQL" forum) and please stick to being professional with one another.
Also please try to stay on topic. Arguments about other threads or previous behavior aren't on topic.
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