January 17, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Testing
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January 17, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Heh... let's see... take a urine test, hair test, background check, credit check, education check, check for bounced checks, check for references, check for traffic and felonly violations, etc, etc, etc... but companies still don't know how to check if you actually know how to write SQL or how to keep you out of the production database. I'm thinking that there's a few company priorities that need to be checked! 😛
--Jeff Moden
January 18, 2008 at 1:33 am
Hi Steve,
For me, as living in Europe, this is just another of these surprising stories from a strange world I obviously don't know well, although I've been there for several weeks, but years ago, and that I can't really imagine to live in: USA. These stories are most of the time much stranger to me than stories from Papua-New Guinea.
How can people come to the strange idea to loose trust in their own human abilities to deal with people and to communicate and build trust between each other and set up machines and procedures to replace these core human abilities?
All these methods are not allowed in Germany, but the point is: There is nearly no one who needs to be told that he shouldn't do that.
We talk to each other, we get the cv and appraisals and we build our own view on a person who wants to work with us. And than we make our decision.
Sometimes we are wrong and this is a big disappointment and it might cost money and reputation - but who is among us who didn't fall in love to a person that turns out to be the wrong choice? This also often costs money and sometimes reputation - but who cares at the end? This is life.
Or, this is how we want life to be here. And the few bad experiences are not worth changing this.
January 18, 2008 at 1:38 am
Would "It depends" be a good start to answer this ?
I guess different checks are needed for different positions where people have different responsibilities.
If someone is to be trusted dealing with a lot of money or other valuables, I think it's only fair you check if they could easily end up in a postion where they'd need to steel for themselves or be blackmailed. That's a different kind of test than for somebody working in a grocery store. But for any kind of testing, I think it's only fair if they would be the same for all. So there should be legislation and standardization on this subject. Drugtests are fine, but general medical checks should not be allowed or it should not be allowed to refuse or lay off people because some medical issue comes up. Tough for the company. Get insured. It's a good stimulus to think how you can make more money. That's a lot easier for entrepeneurs than for the average worker.
January 18, 2008 at 2:27 am
In the UK, I've had a couple of jobs where criminal record checks were done (one was an organization which works almost exclusively with teenagers), but that's about it. Most companies don't even check references and, I beleive, would need to justify any test that wasn't related to the job (drugs, medical, etc).
When I hear stories like this from the USA, I have to agree with Matthias that it makes it sound a very strange place. I've worked there many times (most recently spending 3 months in Chicago a couple of years ago), but being asked to take a lie detector test just to work as a barman seems extreme! Perhaps some Americans wouldn't find the scene in the film "Meet the Parents" unusual?
Derek
January 18, 2008 at 2:45 am
I'd say the tests should be job-related, or not conducted at all. For example, I can image someone who applies for a job in a hospital being tested for several virusses, bacteria, ... For IT, I'd say health tests shouldn't be mandatory - the soon-to-be employee should be tested on his knowledge. And I can't even image an employer being allowed to conduct a lie detector test in my country (Belgium).
As for drug tests, I wouldn't take a job where this is mandatory. One simple example: cannabis. Shows up on drug tests weeks after you smoked it (while other stuff, like amphetamines and who knows what are generally detectable for 1-3 days after use). And as most people know, you're not under the influence anymore if you smoked a joint 2 weeks prior to your test. 🙂 One can easily smoke a joint every few evenings without it interfering with a person's capabilities to do his job during the day as he should. Of course, action should be taken if someone shows up for work under the influence, or comes in late every day due to drug use; but the use shouldn't be taken into account if it doesn't interfere with the job. Then again, I live in a country where cannabis use is quite accepted and tolerated (by the government), so maybe different laws in other countries can justify more rigid drug testing.
January 18, 2008 at 3:02 am
Matthias Hufnagel I agree with and it's nearly the same in Sweden. All thou here it is common to check the criminal record to see if you have one (not sure if that is done or not in germany). Which is fine by me since I havent been to jail or done crimes. However, if I hade, I would find it wrong if they checked since should I not have lernd and paied for the crime after jailtime? On the other hand, if I were to hire someone I'd want to check the criminal record since I dont belive that people change. I've seen it happen thou, that people change, not often but I've seen it, I just dont belive in people changing none the less since I belive a person always have some of the same sort of thinking and idés.
January 18, 2008 at 3:47 am
Steve,
Although it's been quite a while since the last time I smoked a joint or a pipeful of hashish, I do know something about the testing involved. There is an interesting irony here. It takes approximately 30 days for all traces of THC to disappear from your body. It takes 2 days for traces of cocaine to disappear, and only 1 day for traces of heroin to disappear. This in part explains the preference among jail inmates for these items in reverse order.
As I said, I gave up THC-based things a couple of decades ago, and have never been near the other two, but in my opinion the potential employer goes way too far in intruding into these areas. Whether I smoked a joint sometime in the last 30 days is utterly irrelevant to my ability to do the job, whatever said job might be. Of course, if I'm smoking on the job or even just before arriving for work, that's another matter, but the simple test for THC cannot distinguish between 10 days ago and 10 minutes ago.
Assume that breathalyzers worked similarly, to see where this leads. Suppose a traffic cop pulls you over, tests your breath, and discovers that sometime in the past 30 days your alcohol level was over .08. So she seizes your car and you spend the night in jail.
Arthur
Arthur Fuller
cell: 647-710-1314
Only two businesses refer to their clients as users: drug-dealing and software development.
-- Arthur Fuller
January 18, 2008 at 5:08 am
Steve: Your nuclear power plant experience reminds me of when I received a security clearance. 🙂
Arthur: I dislike government intrusion more than you can know. But "10 minutes before your shift starts vs. 10 days ago" sort of makes their point.
:{> Andy
Andy Leonard, Chief Data Engineer, Enterprise Data & Analytics
January 18, 2008 at 5:51 am
Given the level of testing administered to new hires in the US (and not debating the right or wrongs), perhaps we are remiss in not applying the same or tougher standards to those brought in at higher levels. Meaning no disrespect to the dead, I'm sure there are a number of former Enron employees (among others) who would have been interested to know if their CEO could pass a lie detector test.
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Buy the ticket, take the ride. -- Hunter S. Thompson
January 18, 2008 at 6:24 am
The debate is not about whether a drug test is just, but whether one has a right to privacy. Corporations are acting too much like governments. As our projects get bangalored and our jobs get deskilled, we become more and more easily replacable. And the corporations treat us accordingly.
Nobody has yet mentioned that the leaders of a corporation should be subjected to the same testing. One can only wonder. We see our executive VP once a year, where he gives us the 'Work Harder' speech with standard slogans, and then disappears for the rest of the year without so much as raising a glass or breaking bread. Wouldn't mind giving him a test or two 😉
January 18, 2008 at 6:24 am
To pass a lie detector test I've herd about a way that is supposed to work if you hade to lie. At every question they ask you think throu if you want to answere yes or no, then you ask yourself a premade up question in your head which you answers too. However there is new tec coming which scanns your brain and can see if you are not answering thruthfully since the brain lights up in different ways and areas if you speak the truth or not.
January 18, 2008 at 6:25 am
I had applied to work for Canada's version of the NSA and their checks involved the MMPI-2 personality test, an interview with a psychologist, a full background check by our spy agency and a polygraph.
My wife and I decided we didn't really want to move to that city for other reasons, so I dropped out of it after the MMPI-2.
January 18, 2008 at 6:30 am
Hiring for any job should be based on skills and character. So, to get to know one's character, all these kinds of tests may be necessary but not 100% genuine.
January 18, 2008 at 6:30 am
Ian Massi (1/18/2008)
...Canada's... checks involved the MMPI-2 personality test, an interview with a psychologist...
Not much has changed. Sounds like the States, where until recently (IBM especially) they wouldn't hire you, if you were a Jew. Or Black.
If one form of discrimination becomes illegal, they apparently find another. One popular form of discrimination in the States is by age. At 44 I've been banging my head against the glass ceiling for a few years now.
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