September 9, 2011 at 9:30 am
LightVader (9/9/2011)
Steven Willis (9/9/2011)
Not that SQL server development or administration is trivial, but I think the problem I see with the majority of developers is their lack of basic business knowledge. That is, they don't know how business works: the difference between gross and net, how freight moves, what payables and receivables are, what a corporate tax return looks like, how much money is siphoned off every project to pay the government and employee benefits, etc, etc, etc.
Amen to that! I'm trying to correct that problem in myself now. I''m good at the IT part, but when it comes to understanding the business reasons why things must be done certain ways, I'm still learning that. I've just started my MBA in Finance and even though I'm only 3 courses in, it's helping tremendously.
Make sure to add some introductory (at least) logistics and industrial engineering courses in your curriculum if you can! 😉
September 9, 2011 at 9:41 am
I studied International Marketing and retrained as programmer after a few years work experience. Once in IT, my business background was a distinct advantage and I was running projects within 2 years. I was always comfortable with data and wanted to be hands-on, so becoming a DBA was a natural progression.
The CS grads I worked with, at least in the early days, saw themselves more as scientists and felt like fish out of water in commercial IT. They had no experience of file manipulation at uni due to limited disk space and were disconcerted to learn that commercial programming was IO focussed.
September 9, 2011 at 9:43 am
IceDread (9/9/2011)
Ben Moorhouse (9/9/2011)
I have to disagree with those saying that degrees and training outside of the workplace are good things.Whilst I've only worked with a limited number of developers, it's easy to spot those who had done degrees simply because they thought about things and structured things in the same way.
Whilst this is sometimes seen as a good thing, in most cases I've found that they struggle to solve problems as a group because none of them could REALLY think outside of that degree shaped box.
I'm biased though - Whilst I did an IT based AVCE at school, it was extremely simple and I went straight into work and taught myself everything I know about coding and the various database platforms available to me.
My brother however, did a CS degree at university, but would call me for advice simply because he didn't have the experience to know what to do.
When thinking about who I would like to work with, I'd choose achievements and experience over a degree any day.
If you can choose between someone who has a degree and 10 years experience or someone who has 10-14 years experience, would yous till make the same choice?
Behavior undefined!
You can't answer this. It depends on the person. There are those with degrees (education, politics, and most liberal arts) who can't think their way past the drivel shoved into their minds. There are others (mostly science instead of arts degrees) who can. There are a large number of exceptions in both groups.
I remember my discrete math class having a few education majors in it. Their argument was "we are just going to teach, why do we need to learn logic?"
Really? Explains why so many teachers/professors are so ignorant of reality.
I will take a non-degreed person who can show the ability to think, and the experience required, over someone who has a BS, MBA or other degree but who can't think. Usually though, having a degree shows you can think, again excepting certain useless ones.
Dave
September 9, 2011 at 10:16 am
djackson 22568 (9/9/2011)
The suggestion is highly contrary to other suggestions you have made. Think about it - you frequently bring up how business is expecting more and more from us so we need more education at our own expense, how can ignoring one's education in college help us? College isn't (mainly) about learning facts. It is about learning how to learn. Especially given the proclivity of the US college system, where the agenda is to force feed ultra liberal theory (long proved a ridiculous failure) instead of actually teaching the truth, I find that the best students are ones who learn to think for themselves early....
I don't think so. For those in the working world, we do need to keep up with things ourselves. Businesses do expect us to do some learning on our own, and I believe in that, but also that businesses should invest in the good employees.
This piece is talking about future people. What should our children or the next generation learn? Do they need a degree to be a good programmer? Is vocational training better? Note that the former does not preclude the latter.
I would argue that US colleges don't teach an ultra liberalist point of view. They seek to teach a broad range of subjects. I'm not arguing against that, just not sure it's needed in the tech industry.
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September 9, 2011 at 10:21 am
syen (9/9/2011)
I imagine that HR's job must be pretty tough. If you aren't working at a software/database centric company, your HR probably gets 1000's of applicants and since they don't really know what makes a good developer/DBA they have to follow the job requirements verbatim. It becomes more of a check list procedure for them to keep their sanity.I personally know there are a lot of techies without degrees that are some of the best at what they do without proper degrees. But HR can only filter people based on the the job requirements posting, and if it doesn't match they toss it. They don't have enough resources to give 1000's of interviews for each position.
This matters to a point. I have had plenty of HR people forward on my resume without an MCDBA when the requirements stated it was necessary. HR people try to do a good job and find good people. At some point the degree is not going to matter, even to many HR people.
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September 9, 2011 at 10:22 am
I do not have a degree. I've taken quite a bit of college courses just on things that interest me (like physics and calculus -- yes, I'm a geek). I think I've done okay for myself without it.
September 9, 2011 at 10:23 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/9/2011)
...I would argue that US colleges don't teach an ultra liberalist point of view. They seek to teach a broad range of subjects. I'm not arguing against that, just not sure it's needed in the tech industry.
I would argue that it depends on the type of company you work for. My current company is on the smaller size and as such, I have a lot of direct interaction with the business users. In addition, some of the business users will "enhance" their spreadsheets with macros that do all sorts of things. It's very common for some of them to come and bounce ideas off us in IT. For this company, with the amount of user interaction we have, I'd say that breadth of knowledge is an asset.
On the other hand, the previous company I worked for had upwards of 14,000 employees and it was very rare (at least from my perspective) for IT to interact with the business users. The only real interaction was through the help(less) desk. For this company, that breadth of knowledge really didn't matter.
September 9, 2011 at 10:54 am
I would strongly support a vocational training program for computer programming. Over the years the votech schools have struggled as most Americans have bought into the big lie that everyone should go to college. In Minnesota we have a huge shortage of skilled labor in precision machine and electronics manufacturing skills. These skills were typically acquired at a votech school, but there aren't many of them left and those that are left are teaching skills like fashion design.
For many students college (at least in the USA) is a complete rip-off. The tuition and fees are outrageous, and the schools are in cahoots with the text book publishers to make sure that there isn't a market for used books since you have to have the latest edition to use the online components. Many students graduate with large student loan balances and a degree that doesn't help them get a job.
College is the right choice - for some students. If you are serious about moving into management after cutting your teeth as a programmer then it is worth considering. Not to say that you can't be a good manager without going to college, but I do think that some of the soft skills acquired in college help with the understanding of running a business and managing people. But when I'm hiring a programmer I really don't care if they have a college degree. I want to see what experience they have and what they have done. Votech schools would allow for formal training in software development without the costly overhead that comes with a college degree.
September 9, 2011 at 10:56 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/9/2011)
syen (9/9/2011)
I imagine that HR's job must be pretty tough. If you aren't working at a software/database centric company, your HR probably gets 1000's of applicants and since they don't really know what makes a good developer/DBA they have to follow the job requirements verbatim. It becomes more of a check list procedure for them to keep their sanity.I personally know there are a lot of techies without degrees that are some of the best at what they do without proper degrees. But HR can only filter people based on the the job requirements posting, and if it doesn't match they toss it. They don't have enough resources to give 1000's of interviews for each position.
This matters to a point. I have had plenty of HR people forward on my resume without an MCDBA when the requirements stated it was necessary. HR people try to do a good job and find good people. At some point the degree is not going to matter, even to many HR people.
When firms are rapidly growing and/or need a position filled ASAP, requirements are more like guidelines. It's how I (as a Mechanical Engineer with 0 computer certifications) got hired to do mission critical database conversions. But as many firms mature and become more corporate, they begin to worry more about getting sued over EEOC Regulations, and thus requirements become a solid barrier. Since our firm is more mature now, if I cloned myself today, I doubt my clone could make it through the filtering process. 🙁
September 9, 2011 at 10:58 am
I'm all in favor of vocational training. I have an A. S. degree in Airway Science, which I picked because it included a private pilots license as part of the curriculum. Because it was a science degree I got math through Calculus 1 as well as Chemistry and Physics. I also had a couple of classes in computer related things like GW Basic and spreadsheets.
While I generally believe education is valuable in and of itself, if you ask me if I learned anything during those 2 years that helps me do my job today I'd have to answer with a qualified maybe.
I have friends who have enormous debt they acquired while financing an education. I don't know if any of them will ever make enough money to justify the total cost (with interest) of those years in college. I think many people would be better off with a year or two of vocational training and some OJT rather than borrowing all that money.
Unfortunately, I think that the degree is frequently used as a screening point. The job description calls for a degree and if anyone has the temerity to apply without a degree their resume doesn't get a serious look. There may be something to be said for displaying the determination to see a task through to completion, but I've worked with many people who had no degree but were better able to solve actual problems than others with much more education.
September 9, 2011 at 11:01 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/9/2011)
I would argue that US colleges don't teach an ultra liberalist point of view. They seek to teach a broad range of subjects. I'm not arguing against that, just not sure it's needed in the tech industry.
Personally, I absolutely believe a broader base of knowledge is a good thing, particularly in the tech industry.
I have a degree in Political Science. I learned about all kinds of fascinating things, but specifically I learned how to communicate both orally and written. I learned how to develop a position, defend it, and how to see an issue from multiple points of view. I learned that everything is connected. Those skills and knowledge have helped me tremendously in all of my technical jobs.
I also have a generic degree that is IT related. I had to take courses on ethics, on literature, and a capstone course that required group discussion about various topics. In all of these courses, I believe that I managed to pick up something that I have used in my technology-related jobs.
Now, my jobs have all involved dealing directly with business people; this situation may not be the case for many, or even most. But, I believe that there is going to be an increased amount of direct involvement and communication between all of IT and the business side of the house.
Now, with regards to the original article....
The real issue is not the level of vocational training that colleges provide (or don't), or whether a degree is better, worse, or indifferent compared to not having one. Rather, in my opinion, the issue is that IT is generally about producing something, namely software, hardware, and support services. College was never meant to train people to actually manufacture something, but rather to oversee the manufacturing process, to understand the concepts that go into manufacturing something, and then it is up to the individual to learn the necessary steps on the job.
In other words, there is a distinct difference between the historical role of a college and the education it provides, and the current role/expectations of a college degree.
September 9, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Get both - good CS degrees for senior/architect/lead positions, and vocational training for the lower levels!
A good CS degrees tends to lead to multiple language proficiency, multiple ways of solving problems, Big O notation, and the ability to figure out why something is better or worse and compare and contract different methods on the merits. Formal logic is the foundation of programming; that's very useful. This typically doesn't include knowing a particular language syntax actually used in business.
Vocational training is more of a "hit the ground running in Language X, the only (one of two) language I know" area, which is good for junior or short term positions.
Neither is taught in school about bad data, large datasets, and other real life issues.
September 9, 2011 at 12:50 pm
While there are some aspects of being a DBA can be learned in a vocational manner, I believe that in general, a four year degree provides a solid foundation on which to build a career.
I use most every aspect of my degree in Applied Math every day. The other courses that I took come into play also. I would have never thought that in a technical role I would be writing as many word documents as I would code. However, I should have been clued into that reality after writing 25 pages worth of Proofs. I remember my professor saying write what you mean and mean what you write.
The philosophy classes, especially Introduction to Ethics, I still refer to too this day. The business classes laid a good foundation for understanding more than just technical issues. There was a communications class that made me stand up in front of people and give a speech. The English classes that made me read and write something that was non-technical.
Then there are the other aspects of college that are not learned in the classroom, like learning to live on your own and with other people. Among other things, my time in my fraternity taught me about leadership and how to run an effective meeting. Those skills come into play constantly. It also provides me with opportunities and contacts that are very much still relevant.
How many people on this board were provided an opportunity simply because of the College they attended?
Some else pointed out that Military training did not help in being a DBA, but I disagree. At a base level, I was taught to pay attention to detail and how to follow a chain of command. There is also the fact that I have done tougher jobs than that of a DBA. If I get tired of this job, I know that Uncle Sam will pay me to that job again.
I also know and work with people who do not have a degree. They all worked very hard to overcome the fact that they did not have one.
September 9, 2011 at 1:39 pm
One other aspect of a vocational eduction v. a more formal college education is that when that vo-tech graduate gains some experience and wants to further their education and enrolls in that night-school university extension school, they'll find that little, if any, of their vo-tech credits will transfer to the four-year institution, forcing them to "start over" and take all those xxx101 courses, totally blowing away the cheap education they had started with. Those with an Associates degree fare a little better than those with Certificates.
An interesting poll (Steve) might be to find out how many of us are actually working in the industry that we earned our first degree in. I'm a "No"...I started out as an Electronics Engineer and got my CS degree a few years later once I figured out that software was (somehow) better than hardware. 🙂
September 9, 2011 at 6:04 pm
"Generally speaking" a degree or specific training should not be required. IT professionals and the companys we work for will all benefit from unique and diverse combinations of training backgrounds because of the innovation and cost savings it would provide.
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