March 16, 2011 at 11:21 am
Keith Langmead (3/16/2011)
Similarly, business aren't experts in IT, so shouldn't try to define the how, that's what they pay IT for. I've lost track of the number of times I've had business clients say they want X, Y and Z done, without any background of what they want to achieve. When you actually talk to them about it you often find that while their method will work, it's no longer the best way. The best solutions change over time, and if they have A, B and C instead, it'll do the job better, faster, easier and cheaper than their solution.The tricky thing at times is having that discussion without coming across as arguing with the client!
While I absolutely agree with your overall premise here, the fact is in the real world they do try to define the how and even sometimes totally underestimate the complexity of the how, while enforcing unrealistic deadlines. I can't count the times I have heard management say "Just make it happen by Monday morning." without any understanding of the how. Even when trying to explain the how in high level terms has been met with "I don't understand the technical end, just get it done..." It's like putting Burger King (restaurant) management over a complex IT department. In other words, they tend to always want it "their way" without understanding or caring about much else. Things just aren't always that simple in IT. Most of their experience is working with 18 year old unskilled workers right out of High School pushing burgers and fries out the door. The IT business is a whole different ball game. This business is just not as simple as leaving off the pickles and the mustard. However, that basic management mentality is still there, even in today's complex IT environments. I have seen it alot in the last 27 years in this business and it can really bottle up departments fast.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
March 16, 2011 at 11:37 am
Travis, I know the kind of shops you're fighting with, but those are actually rare. Apparently, not from your experience, but one of us has had either good or bad luck then.
I've had business try to tell me how to do my job, but in general, they only care that it works and they can get their job done. Some of this has to do with my approach when I deal with business entities, other times I just teach them like any child that needs to learn fire is hot and won't listen. I let them burn themselves on something small.
Most places I know of, the business only cares about the what. They need a system that connects widgets to gaskets in real time while the salesmen need to know what's in the inventory warehouse and what can get shipped when the widget and gasket counts are malfunctioning. They could care less if we give it them on a PDA, a web browser, or develop a desktop app unless they work remotely. The only time I've seen business start getting involved with a heavier hand then normal is when IT was screwing up royally for a long time, so business HAD to get tech savvy, on top of their other duties.
That's not a training issue, it's a confidence issue. It comes back to forcing the partnership back into place, something that takes a really good manager on top of a solid tech team.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
March 16, 2011 at 11:45 am
1. "those are actually rare." Respectfully disagree here. Not as rare as one might think. I have even heard it mentioned several times before in this forum alone....
2. "Most places I know of, the business only cares about the what. " Not true, WHEN is always a big concern for them, and that always affects the HOW....
3. "The only time I've seen business start getting involved with a heavier hand then normal is when IT was screwing up royally for a long time, so business HAD to get tech savvy, on top of their other duties."
That is not the only time they get involved or dictate this. Office politics/agendas/tech ignorance plays a big role in this as well...
😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
March 16, 2011 at 12:14 pm
As we are one of several IT groups, we tend to think about "our users." We have to keep our users happy even when we think that things they ask are not always wise from the point of view of "the business" as a whole.
We have lately seen a major shift in technology: PowerPivot. We gather, consolidate and cleanse data and store it in cubes. They can access this "single version of the truth" from their Excel and take it from there. A year ago we would have to develop and maintain lots of infrequently used reports.
March 16, 2011 at 12:55 pm
TravisDBA (3/16/2011)
1. "those are actually rare." Respectfully disagree here. Not as rare as one might think. I have even heard it mentioned several times before in this forum alone....
I fear we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I have dealt with shops like that on rare occassions, but they have been abnormal.
2. "Most places I know of, the business only cares about the what. " Not true, WHEN is always a big concern for them, and that always affects the HOW....
Point, Set, Match. Very true that the WHEN is just as important to them, but that's usually more fluid, as long as it's within reason.
3. "The only time I've seen business start getting involved with a heavier hand then normal is when IT was screwing up royally for a long time, so business HAD to get tech savvy, on top of their other duties."
That is not the only time they get involved or dictate this. Office politics/agendas/tech ignorance plays a big role in this as well...
Tech Ignorance can usually work in my favor to keep them out of those decisions. Agendas are politics, and I avoid those like the plague. I make sure everyone and their mother has a copy of my objections, in writing, and then let the children burn themselves. Two or three iterations of that and either I have new managers or suddenly I don't have the problem anymore. I don't play politics, I do a job. If that job requires me to build crap because you demanded it and you have the authority, meh, one crap build coming up.
It might just be a matter of perspective, then, too. I usually find those 'build it in this' coming down from my own management, instead of from the business side of things. What happens behind closed doors over my head may be the difference in our perspectives.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
March 17, 2011 at 1:02 am
SQLMitch (3/16/2011)
We have found that the farther IT is from "The Business", the easier it is to be looked at as an expense, and therefore, regarded as such. It's easier for them to question the value of the service when disconnected like that. So I try to steer us more into the business end, even with all the crazyness that goes with it. The whole of the company should equal more than the sum of its parts, including IT.
Spot on. IT needs to cosey up to the business REAL close. They should understand them, which means talking to them, understanding business issues, and recommending solutions. They should enable business, otherwise they are an expense, and expenses as we all know are for cutting in bad times, and controlling (cutting) in good.
This is reflected too in Sarah B's comment/contribution above - how to get them to spend money - quite simple, give them a business case.
These can be simple - hard benefits are best "spend x, save y per year, payback 15 months". They can be soft or even risk-based - "install planning system because sharemarket thinks your management are turkeys if they can't get forecasts right, and if the sharemarket wipes say 10% off your capital value, that's $x million down the tubes".
We are presented with a problem from the business, and that is an opportunity, i.e. the solution we recommend. That way we add value, and are valued. Hard to do, requires an unusual set of skills, especially for a DBA, and is often delegated to other parts of the IT empire. But oh so important for an IT organisation. That way the cuts are in theory less painful...
March 17, 2011 at 5:49 am
I'm curious how successful you all have been making businesses cases for things that are a harder sell - say upgrading from SQL2000 to SQL 2008 or so. Certainly it has benefits, but are you able to find ones that matter to the business? Or do they get the need to stay current/supported?
March 17, 2011 at 7:26 am
Andy Warren (3/17/2011)
I'm curious how successful you all have been making businesses cases for things that are a harder sell - say upgrading from SQL2000 to SQL 2008 or so. Certainly it has benefits, but are you able to find ones that matter to the business? Or do they get the need to stay current/supported?
Upgrading software is not that big of a sell. Most shops nowadays do that as a matter of course anyway, unless current legacy applications they are using prevent it. Upgrading hardware is a different story, but can still be done easily, particularly if a singleton server goes down and their website is down for hours. Ouch! They tend to loosen those purse strings up real fast then. Let the 'business" experience what it is like to lose access to their data (website), even for a couple of hours and then they get a whole new perspective. Sometimes, a disaster is just what is needed to make your selling point. Or, even better, some DBA's I have known in the past have kept that production server down an extra 15 minutes or half hour just to make that point. 🙂 The bottom line is, managers never appreciate their data, or the need to upgrade and safeguard it, until they lose it for a day or two. They will get the need real quick then 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
Viewing 8 posts - 16 through 22 (of 22 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply