October 19, 2007 at 7:25 am
Paul G (10/17/2007)
It is slightly away from the point of this thread but it would be interesting to know how many people on this site have a degree as well as if the degree is in their career field.Though, as a survey whose margin for error is wide, in discussing this subject with associates the majority of IT leaders/managers did not have a degree in an IT related area. Only three of 11 had IT field degrees, one had no college, one a technical school degree and the rest had degrees in an array of pursuits Natural Sciences (2), Philosophy (1 the only PhD), Theatre Arts (1), Other Engineering (1) and the final one in Literature.
I have a BA in English and a few certifications in web development and databases (MCTS for SQL 2005 most recently). I changed careers a few years after college.
The SQL certification was a starting point, but it covers only the tip of the iceberg. As they say, I now know how little I know. :w00t:
webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
October 19, 2007 at 7:27 am
I admire you EEs. I did that for a year on the side while I was tending bar. I got to transistors, and maybe my Egyptian teacher who had me confused for about a month with mee-tals (metals) slowed me down, but that was about my limit. I hit Electromagnetics and Fourier Transforms and decided I'd move to Computer Engineering. For some reason I couldn't get through that stuff.
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October 19, 2007 at 7:51 am
You give me an excited, talented, motivated, eager candidate with good work ethics and experience, and academic credentials become less of an issue - it's the desire to learn and thrive in a SQL Server database environment. However, with that said, I would probably ask some candidates why they did not attend. Sometimes there are very good reasons like family obligations, etc.
I attending Syracuse University and have B.S. in Information Studies. This is a widely growing degree where it is not specifically computer science classes but classes that would teach an individual good logic and troubleshooting skills. I say this because I feel that a CIS degree does not say it all; there are other degrees that can be of value in IT.
Summary: I think academic credentials are like a nice to have - like Certifications. I hold 4 and I am sure they never had anything to do with getting a job
Erik, MCDBA
October 19, 2007 at 7:57 am
Hey, a fellow Orangeman. Glad to see you stuck it out. Too cold and $$$ for me, so I went to UVa where I could still wear my blue and orange.
I'm not sure I'd ask someone why they didn't attend. Certainly there are valid reasons, but I wouldn't want someone to feel slighted or insulted if it was money, immaturity at 18, or anything else. I usually just feel around their experiences, and if college is included, we talk about that.
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October 19, 2007 at 8:48 am
I graduated (with honors) with a BS degree in Computer Science. My take on College is this: Someone had posted previously that a college degree is the new high school diploma. I completely agree with that. I have two kids and have helped them through high school and into college straight from high school. I pushed myself and my kids to go to college primarily because no one can learn enough about the many different areas and skills life requires these days. I have been a programmer and DBA for 20 years and STILL attend college classes. Not always about computer stuff but also about things like investing, advanced math, business and many other topics. These are all required skills to make it through life. Where else are you going to learn? College is about being taught a common set of skills that other graduates share. I know that someone who has taken Calculus and passed it must have had or developed the reasoning skills to pass it. This means that I also know what they know and the reverse. This makes team work so much easier. I don't think any one should be forced into college because it is not for everyone. But I believe many opportunities are taken away without a college degree. Any one can go to work on an assembly line and learn how to push a button. They may be the best at pushing that button, but what a narrow existence!!
October 19, 2007 at 9:30 am
I agree with the general consensus that a college degree is nice to have although not a necessity. Most of the programmers and DBAs that I work with do not have degrees or have degrees in fields other than computer science. Very few people in my company have certifications either.
I have noticed that when applying for management positions, the question of college does come up and does seem to add weight. I personally think that 10 years of programming experience, leading IT teams and managing projects should be qualifications enough but we have many many IT managers with little actual experience but a nice degree. For this reason alone, I strongly suggest people get their college educations and certifications because it will be faster to do that than to wait for hiring practices to change. Especially if you want to get into management. 😉
oh, and as for myself...BS in Network Management, MBA with IT emphasis, no MS certifications though. Managing SQL server databases and doing performance management reporting for 6 years.
October 19, 2007 at 11:32 am
I have found this thread very interesting and maybe for some a little purgative. I think it underscores that it is not what you learn but what you do with what you have learned that is more predictive of success. Still, since I feel some responsibility for this line of discussion, I would like to assert that college may not be necessary it is important. Without college I would not have been exposed to the breadth of experiences - most of which have been at one time useful in my IT career.
Very similarly, certifications are interesting but I find them no more important than education. I don't know if any of you have a similar experience or not but around ten years ago I got more and more pressure to "be a mentor to the 'newer' employees" and it became hard then impossible to get the opportunity through employement to get training/certification. The expectation seemed to be anyone who has been doing it for a while already knows it. So endless after-hours self study sessions is all that keeps me up to date. The only certifications that I have that are still relevant are LPA, Broadcast Engineer and Massage Therapist.
October 19, 2007 at 1:46 pm
I agree that the usage of the experience is the most important thing. I know a lot of people who have went through training and lost all of the knowledge almost immediately through nonusage. I am in the boat where I am too busy to go to training and thus am basically self taught on nearly everything that I do for work. This is great budget-wise and allows me to complete my projects without the formal training downtime but I have found that it just raises a lot more questions when it comes to job interviews. There is something about the word "certified" that employers like. Even if you forgot everything you learned, they assume you know it. Whereas with no certifications or formal training, they just grill you more until they trust you. Downside of certifications are that if you get certified and you don't remember it for whatever reason, they expect more out of you and you are automatically deemed an expert. Luckily I have been with my company long enough that everyone knows my work and trusts that I can get the job done.
One positive thing that I have to say about college is that you will learn so much from the other students and instructors regarding real world experience that you will not get from a text book or online course. This is why I opted to avoid online courses in my MBA and undergrad.
I would be curious to see what hiring managers really think about all of this. It would be refreshing to hear that certifications and degrees do not hold as much weight as they used to.
Great post topic
October 19, 2007 at 5:06 pm
I graduated High School in '76; that December I started my first job as a computer technician having 2 years of electronics in High School. Within 2 years I was programming the test machines that I had been using to troubleshoot Mini-Computer processor boards. I taught myself assembler, pascal, basic and the tester language called "Foul" . I kid you not I programmed in foul language. I never had a chance to get a degree but I worked enough supporting my family to put my father through two of them. I've been a software engineer since 1985 but a hobby programmer since 1975. I've done assembler, C, taught C++ to game programmers, I've programmed in three different variations of Basic the last being VB.NET, I've done FORTH professionally, I've done python, and Perl. I have experience in Java and both Oracle and SQL server. Experience is worthless unless you know how to learn. This was the most valuable skill I have ever acquired.
Look for the person who knows how to learn and his college is amplified but if he has none it won't matter much.
Scott
October 19, 2007 at 11:45 pm
you asked so: I have dual AA in CS and Math, (back when computers were big beasts) a BS in Physics and spent 27 years in a research lab, changing jobs about every 4 years...retired young and now back consulting. My role is lots of things, one is the DBA for this Company. I went to a good college and learned the most important thing was learning how to learn. Been getting a chance to learn something new every year since...still scrambling to keep up... and loving every minute.
October 20, 2007 at 12:05 am
I think you hit it right on the head. You have to know how to learn and advance your knowledge, not how to write papers and pass tests.
Instead of going to college after high school, I got married, had kids, then joined the workforce. 15 years later, I have an engineering position, without an engineering degree. Throughout my work experience, I have taught myself ColdFusion and SQL, along with some Unix and Perl. I have had to learn OJT how to install and maintain a web server (including the OS and SQL Server), and I am sole developer and support for a large, widely used proprietary application at work.
Last year, I decided to pursue a degree to fill in the gaps and learn more programming languages. I'll have the AA in IT by June next year, and the BS in software engineering in 3 more years if I can tolerate it :w00t:. Most of what I've done so far in school, though, I consider a huge waste of time. I know how to write. I know how to research. (Although, it is quite disheartening how many adults cannot form a proper sentence or even spell). I look at the curriculum for the BS, and wonder if it's worth it if I have to take more redundant and pointless classes.
However, I think 6 years of rigorous experience should speak far more than a piece of paper. I work with all engineers. Many of them are very intelligent. On the other hand, throughout my career, I have met countless morons with advanced degrees. I've long ago come to the conclusion it's not how you learned it, it's what you can do with it.
October 20, 2007 at 12:08 am
Scott Beckstead (10/19/2007)
I kid you not I programmed in foul language.
ME TOO EVERY DAY! 😀
October 23, 2007 at 8:18 am
The most useful component of my degree was a Sandwich Year in industry, which says a lot in the context of this debate. I studied Software Engineering, which still frames a lot of my approach. However, it is the years of experience that followed and the pragmatism you have to adopt that are ultimately responsible for how I do things now.
Degree or not, the first few years of working with computers are hard, simply because that body of experience takes that long to acquire.
It's probably worth pointing out that I've been asked for my degree precisely twice in my career. If companies truly prize the acquisition of a degree, you'd think that more of them would seek proof that you have it.
Signing off, the one excellent thing about my degree is I know that no-one can take it away from me.
October 23, 2007 at 8:26 am
I have never been asked to supply proof of my degrees to anybody.
The only people who have asked for evidence of any qualifications were the Civil Service, who simply wanted my GCE results.
My MCDBA, CLP, MCAD quals have never been questioned. The three published papers I've got have never been followed up.
I've always told the truth but imho there is a big hole there for less scrupulous people...
October 23, 2007 at 8:30 am
paul.alan.taylor (10/23/2007)
...It's probably worth pointing out that I've been asked for my degree precisely twice in my career. If companies truly prize the acquisition of a degree, you'd think that more of them would seek proof that you have it.
Signing off, the one excellent thing about my degree is I know that no-one can take it away from me.
We require proof of degree of persons we hire.
While my advanced degree was not a requirement for my job. I believe that my boss like the idea of having Ph.D. on staff. He values education, of course, I work for an educational institution 🙂 Employees are given 3 hours a week of leave to pursue an advanced degree that is relevant to their job. We can also enroll in 3 hours of classes at any university in the system for free.
Terri
To speak algebraically, Mr. M. is execrable, but Mr. C. is
(x+1)-ecrable.
Edgar Allan Poe
[Discussing fellow writers Cornelius Mathews and William Ellery Channing.]
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