November 14, 2018 at 10:39 am
stevescanlan - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:13 AMAre you saying that these conventions are taking place in a location that isn't covered by law?
Not at all. However, the law doesn't cover all behavior. There are behaviors that an event or private company may not allow that are not illegal under the law.
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November 14, 2018 at 10:50 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:06 AMskeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 9:28 AMSteve, this will possibly get me banned from this site,.Not banning you, and not going to discuss this. You have your right to an opinion, but I think your opening is a rather naive and poorly thought through statement.
Well, Steve, I'm not surprised that you take the typical position of only addressing part of the problem and following the popular position. I don't think at my 75+ years perspective I'm naive, and I guess my opinion is based on the same years of experience. All you need do is look at the current broadcast and movie content and appraise the content of current advertising style to see my point. If I exposed myself to the same degree I'd be arrested. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
November 14, 2018 at 11:35 am
(Please note, I've not been to SQL Summit)
I wonder how much of the harassment stems from a "what happens in Vegas (Summit) stays in Vegas (Summit)" sort of attitude, along with perhaps a liberal dash of alcohol-loosened inhibitions. Not excusing the behavior in the least, just speculating.
I don't disagree that it's something that shouldn't happen, and I would agree that a spelled out, pointed out to all attendees, CoC is a good start, followed by said CoC being policed (but not enforced, we'll get to that) by the community itself. Enforcement would fall to the actual Summit staffers, basically the community would be running a sort of "neighborhood watch," where if they see something untoward happening, they take steps to call the cops (staff.)
The various comic / SF / fantasy conventions have had to take a similar tack to deal with cosplayers being harassed by attendees. I'd say "whatever happened to treating people with respect," but really I think such behavior has been going on forever, it's just now gotten to the point where instead of telling the victims "ah, suck it up," instead they're being told "we'll deal with the perpetrator" and said perp is either escorted away, or outright ejected from the event.
November 14, 2018 at 11:39 am
skeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 9:28 AMSteve, this will possibly get me banned from this site, but here goes. I've just about had enough of the current 'Me too' movement, and it's maybe time for us guys to start a 'You too' movement'. I'm just an old guy who remembers when things were different. What with current standards of female attire and deportment, my response has become 'Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it'.I do see that you sort of acknowledge this with your inclusion of the comment 'mostly' (as regards the greater part or number). Isn't there a current TV spot that says 'We know a few things because we've seen a few things'. Until this situation gets realized, I can only say 'Get over it'.
If you are saying that women need to be mindful of how they dress and and act, I have to disagree. As the father of three grown women it isn't up to them, of and by themselves, to worry about how they dress or act. Men have just as much responsibility to control themselves.
November 14, 2018 at 12:03 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:39 AMNot at all. However, the law doesn't cover all behavior. There are behaviors that an event or private company may not allow that are not illegal under the law.
The problem with Codes of Conduct is that they immediately head to Social Justice Warriorland and come out with statements on Climate Change or various positions on human sexuality. The relentless do-gooders and virtue signalers start pressing for more and more.
November 14, 2018 at 1:01 pm
Lynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 11:39 AMIf you are saying that women need to be mindful of how they dress and and act, I have to disagree. As the father of three grown women it isn't up to them, of and by themselves, to worry about how they dress or act. Men have just as much responsibility to control themselves.
Lynn, no argument that it isn't up to them, of and by themselves, but I contend that the responsibility is shared. I'm very weary of men, although I've not experienced it myself, always being ASSUMED to the the ones at fault.
By the way,I would have voted to confirm Cavanaugh! I raised four sons - successfully - and always counselled them in their context that if they didn't want to be assumed guilty, then don't BE THERE. I think the same goes for women.
If you don't want customers, quit advertising.
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
November 14, 2018 at 1:12 pm
November 14, 2018 at 1:18 pm
I went to PASS 2017 and didn't witness anyone there drunk, dressing provocatively, or getting rowdy; although I have seen it at high school band camp and neighborhood block parties. If you're part of the organizational team for a large event, I guess you see everything at least once, even if it's not obvious to the attendees. Some stuff gets settled privately and swept under the rug.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 14, 2018 at 2:20 pm
skeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 1:01 PMLynn, no argument that it isn't up to them, of and by themselves, but I contend that the responsibility is shared. I'm very weary of men, although I've not experienced it myself, always being ASSUMED to the the ones at fault.By the way,I would have voted to confirm Cavanaugh! I raised four sons - successfully - and always counselled them in their context that if they didn't want to be assumed guilty, then don't BE THERE. I think the same goes for women.
If you don't want customers, quit advertising.
I would have confirmed Judge Kavanaugh as well. Bringing up an accusation 36 years after the fact and with no supporting evidence was a smear.
November 14, 2018 at 2:58 pm
skeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 1:01 PMIf you don't want customers, quit advertising.
This kind of statement, and the mentality that it encourages, are exactly why the MeToo movement is not only needed, but should be required.
The implication that how a woman dresses, or how much she drinks, or whatever criteria is used, should be a determining factor about how she deserves to be treated is ridiculous and offensive.
Ask some of the female members of your family, or circle of friends if they have ever been sexually harassed, or raped. Then ask them how they felt at the time, and how they feel now. Even years later.
Michael L John
If you assassinate a DBA, would you pull a trigger?
To properly post on a forum:
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/61537/
November 14, 2018 at 3:16 pm
Michael L John - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 2:58 PMskeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 1:01 PMIf you don't want customers, quit advertising.This kind of statement, and the mentality that it encourages, are exactly why the MeToo movement is not only needed, but should be required.
The implication that how a woman dresses, or how much she drinks, or whatever criteria is used, should be a determining factor about how she deserves to be treated is ridiculous and offensive.
Ask some of the female members of your family, or circle of friends if they have ever been sexually harassed, or raped. Then ask them how they felt at the time, and how they feel now. Even years later.
Michael L John - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 2:58 PMskeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 1:01 PMIf you don't want customers, quit advertising.This kind of statement, and the mentality that it encourages, are exactly why the MeToo movement is not only needed, but should be required.
"The implication that how a woman dresses, or how much she drinks, or whatever criteria is used, should be a determining factor about how she deserves to be treated is ridiculous and offensive. "
Ask some of the female members of your family, or circle of friends if they have ever been sexually harassed, or raped. Then ask them how they felt at the time, and how they feel now. Even years later.
Well, SSC-Insane ( I think the handle says it pretty well ), glad you are offended. So how do you implement that 'required' Me Too thing?
"The implication that how a woman dresses, or how much she drinks, or whatever criteria is used, should be a determining factor about how she deserves to be treated is ridiculous and offensive."
I'm not going to be PC at all here. That comment is just plain DUMB!
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
November 14, 2018 at 4:54 pm
skeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 3:16 PMMichael L John - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 2:58 PMskeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 1:01 PMIf you don't want customers, quit advertising.This kind of statement, and the mentality that it encourages, are exactly why the MeToo movement is not only needed, but should be required.
The implication that how a woman dresses, or how much she drinks, or whatever criteria is used, should be a determining factor about how she deserves to be treated is ridiculous and offensive.
Ask some of the female members of your family, or circle of friends if they have ever been sexually harassed, or raped. Then ask them how they felt at the time, and how they feel now. Even years later.
Michael L John - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 2:58 PMskeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 1:01 PMIf you don't want customers, quit advertising.This kind of statement, and the mentality that it encourages, are exactly why the MeToo movement is not only needed, but should be required.
"The implication that how a woman dresses, or how much she drinks, or whatever criteria is used, should be a determining factor about how she deserves to be treated is ridiculous and offensive. "
Ask some of the female members of your family, or circle of friends if they have ever been sexually harassed, or raped. Then ask them how they felt at the time, and how they feel now. Even years later.
Well, SSC-Insane ( I think the handle says it pretty well ), glad you are offended. So how do you implement that 'required' Me Too thing?
"The implication that how a woman dresses, or how much she drinks, or whatever criteria is used, should be a determining factor about how she deserves to be treated is ridiculous and offensive."
Editor: Comment removed as it was inappropriate.
Michael L John
If you assassinate a DBA, would you pull a trigger?
To properly post on a forum:
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/61537/
November 14, 2018 at 4:54 pm
stevescanlan - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 12:03 PMSteve Jones - SSC Editor - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:39 AMNot at all. However, the law doesn't cover all behavior. There are behaviors that an event or private company may not allow that are not illegal under the law.
The problem with Codes of Conduct is that they immediately head to Social Justice Warriorland and come out with statements on Climate Change or various positions on human sexuality. The relentless do-gooders and virtue signalers start pressing for more and more.
We're not talking about climate change or any other political issues here. We are talking about creating a welcoming environment where everyone can feel safe. You know, that whole #SQLFamily thing that everyone alsways is so excited about.
The law is not enough for that. The law does not forbid me to follow you around an entire evening. The law does not forbid me to look at you in any which way I want. Heck, the law does not even forbid me to make statements such as "oh if I ever had a chance I would so love to kick you where it hurts / give you an intinmate massage / make you do a million pushups / whatever else". There's nothing that a legal approach can do - but if I make such statements and then continue to follow you around, stay awkwardly close to you, perhaps even follow you to your hotel room ... would you fee safe?
The law is not always enough.
November 14, 2018 at 4:59 pm
skeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 1:01 PMLynn Pettis - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 11:39 AMIf you are saying that women need to be mindful of how they dress and and act, I have to disagree. As the father of three grown women it isn't up to them, of and by themselves, to worry about how they dress or act. Men have just as much responsibility to control themselves.Lynn, no argument that it isn't up to them, of and by themselves, but I contend that the responsibility is shared. I'm very weary of men, although I've not experienced it myself, always being ASSUMED to the the ones at fault.
If you don't want customers, quit advertising.
I edited out a part of the quote above. This forum is not the proper place to discuss USA politics.
Your last statement, within the context of this discussion, is highly disturbing. A woman wearing clothes that she likes, that are comfortable, heck even that make her look good, is NOT advertising for sexual harassment.
If you truly belief that a woman dressing to look good is "advertising" for anything ... then, respectfully, you sir are part of the problem.
November 14, 2018 at 5:01 pm
Michael L John - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 4:54 PMskeleton567 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 3:16 PMI'm not going to be PC at all here. That comment is (...)Thankfully you are (....)
Okay, at this point I strongly suggest that the both of you take it down a notch. This is a professional forum. We can disagree with each other, we can be emotional about topics ... but let's keep the conversation professional.
No more name calling please.
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