September 17, 2013 at 3:09 pm
alex.d.garland (9/17/2013)
...The value of these is definitely in giving structure and motivation to round out your knowledge in areas you might not otherwise have considered. If you're cheating at the exams, or doing the bare minimum of cramming to get a passing grade, don't bother!...
Concur Alex. Not saying they're worthless - agreed that studying can really help to make sure you've covered all the bases. But I can also get that with my favorite book or Pluralsight course. I once took a MS programming exam without studying for it a few years ago to see what it was like. I *couldn't believe* all the silly IDE-related questions that I could easily answer with Visual Studio open. A lot of it is a memory quiz. I didn't even consider going back to retake the test. That's what intellisense is for - to help guide you to a given available method or property. But when they give you a test on something that is provided for free that I don't need to know, it's stupid IMO. And since when do I have to take a test while I'm at work? Without a book or the internet. What???!! Ha - I just can't see my boss coming up to me and asking me to create something for him and, oh, I have to use Notepad and no internet access. And he'll be timing me to make sure I get it done in 2.5 hours. Yeah, right.
Again, not trying to slam the cert test in and of itself, but it's the learning process that pays the dividends and how you then use/apply that knowledge. All I'm saying. It all has to carry over and be useful to you for it to have any value for you or your employer.
I interviewed for a job once where the manager gave me an assignment/task to accomplish in an hour and a half or so. He said you can use any source you want, and provided a computer with internet access, Visual Studio and - eek! - Microsoft Access for the data layer. I had trouble finding a working web.config-based connection string for Access and asked him who uses Access for an application anyway. Oh, and I was 30+ minutes late for that interview because I was working on a calendar solution to send to another manager where I had interviewed a few days prior. And I even got up in the middle of the interview to take a phone call from the other manager where I was offered the job. Hilarious. I didn't get an offer for the second job. I wonder why? :w00t:
September 17, 2013 at 3:48 pm
Alex, no question that the format and structure can be an aid to learning. But I remain unconvinced that most people view it that way or use it that way. I'm absolutely not knocking those who do. I'm just saying that the other people are radically reducing the worth of the cert, even though you did get great good out of it.
Steve, you're asking the wrong person. I'm a film school drop-out who is self-taught in computers. No certs. No degrees. On paper, I'm worthless. Ha!
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
September 17, 2013 at 4:41 pm
So I'm a little confused on what to do, there are good arguments for and against certs. I took a pay cut to get this job because I wanted the experience but I am not sure how much longer I can afford to stay. This is the only work experience I have in this field and I'm worried that it won't be enough. There was advice about saying what I have done, projects I've led and initiatives I've taken but will it be enough? Three years ago I was working in the body shop and I'd rather not go back.
September 17, 2013 at 6:45 pm
lol Grant, you just cemented the reasoning behind my question. Very successful, no certifications, no college. A vote for the self-taught man. You'da known that if you went to college. 😀
September 17, 2013 at 8:03 pm
Hey carpainter, I think the answer is "it depends". You are required to have a "computer" degree (computer science, computer engineering, software development, computer information systems) to work as a programmer/software developer for some companies/institutions, while others are not so picky. I'll relay some first-hand experiences I've had to give you a feel for what to expect since my employment in development since 1997. I worked at Lexmark as a coop student, in their technical support center, then they hired me after I got my first degree in Physical Science. I dropped out of UK as a senior in electrical engineering unfortunately after my wife was expecting our first baby, but that first degree helped get me hired, so I didn't look back. My first manager there told me they were picky about who they hired to write their software (printer utilities and print drivers), but I was a special case on the build team. I only helped build the tools to build the software, not build the actual software going out the door on the CDs. It was a good learning experience when I eventually got to work on our C++ command line tools with PVCS APIs and helped me understand the need for a masters so I have a real "computer" degree. That manager told me they preferred University of Louisville or Purdue grads, but "would take" University of Kentucky people. That was a carry over from the old IBM days (Lexmark is a spin off from IBM and had a bunch of old IBMers when I joined them in 1992) where they were picky and demanded grads who went to good schools with good GPAs. One guy I knew worked for IBM in Lexington and worked on the old PC bios and he told me that he had trouble getting his wife into IBM because she only had a 3.14 GPA. That's IBM. I suspect Hewlett Packard may be somewhat the same, but they also know there's some guys that can code and not have a degree. I was also interviewing in Louisville for a job (maybe a bank, but I can't remember) several years ago and they had hired a guy because his skills were such a good fit for the job but then had to rescind the offer because he didn't have a degree. Folks without a college degree can lose out on some good (better?) jobs just because they don't have a piece of paper. They told me that HR found out he didn't have a degree when they reviewed his application and kicked him out.
That said, I also worked at a place called ELAN Home Systems in Lexington, KY and worked along with several high quality electrical and mechanical engineers and guys with degrees in computer science and software development from Purdue. One of the better guys had a degree in electrical engineering and another in computer science and was well-respected. My office mate had a masters in electrical engineering. This was my first job after I finished my masters and I got a 26% salary increase by leaving ACS (affiliated computer services) in 2006. They just weren't going to give me anything for that degree, so I was forced to leave if I wanted more cash. (Not bragging here, just relaying some of my experiences for you). Those degrees do help, bottom line. One of the four guys on our software team didn't have any college, and he did okay. He had navy electronics experience, but not sure of the details. He was impetuous and a little scary in the way that he refactored code, but he did fine. He later went to work for ACS and as far as I know is still there. He worked initially at ELAN in the technical support area and got into the back door doing software development because he worked hard at night learning on his own. I'm not sure he would have gotten in the door as a software developer off the street without a degree, because, as far as I know, no one else in engineering or the software team was without a degree.
ACS is a different story. After ELAN dissolved, we all got laid off. We helped get this guy on to ACS - without any college I believe, but it took at least two interviews. He wasn't strong at all with SQL Server and he essentially failed the technical interview when they asked him questions like "What would you do if you had an application that was running slow" and other SQL-related questions like "What's a primary key" and other basics like that. He told me that he said "I'm not sure" several times so it's pretty obvious he wasn't a good fit. But I gave him some primers and told him to bone up on his SQL skills and he could probably get in, and he did.
So, that long-winded discussion brings us to this point. Degrees help a lot. Certs can get you an interview, but you still have to know your stuff to get the job. The career lab for the Nashville .NET Users Group here - http://nashdotnet.org/2013/01/january-17th-career-lab/ has a lot of very good career/interviewing information that is critical to understanding how to get a job. It's an hour and a half recording of their career panel of hiring managers and recruiters and it's very eye-opening. They had so much good information that I took extensive notes and would be happy to PM/email that to you if you want it. They say they don't look at programming certifications much at all if I recall correctly. I don't have that in my notes that they said that, but I'm pretty sure they're where Grant is on that. IMO, it's generally known that the MS programming certifications are just memory work and they don't really prove a thing. And, definitely don't mean that you know how to program. I believe the networking/Cisco certifications are different. The two guys on our team here at work (not at ACS) have extensive certifications for servers and/or networking and are very skilled individuals. They back up their certs with bona fide skills. If you don't have a degree, some hiring managers will skip over your resume/cv very quickly if some accomplishments aren't apparent. It always helps to know people and network with those you know. Experience, know-how and good skills trumps everything most of the time.
Hope that helps. It sure took a long time to write. : )
--Steve
September 18, 2013 at 3:18 am
carpainter69 (9/17/2013)
So I'm a little confused on what to do, there are good arguments for and against certs. I took a pay cut to get this job because I wanted the experience but I am not sure how much longer I can afford to stay. This is the only work experience I have in this field and I'm worried that it won't be enough. There was advice about saying what I have done, projects I've led and initiatives I've taken but will it be enough? Three years ago I was working in the body shop and I'd rather not go back.
I hear you and agree with you. The simple fact is, demonstrated knowledge and ability and work experience are currently the best measures. The certs can help a little, but only a little. The more you do, the more you can do. Start a blog. Start writing down everything you learn. Then point future employers to the blog. "This is some of the stuff I've been working on." I'd respect that way beyond any of the current Microsoft certifications.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
September 18, 2013 at 9:12 am
carpainter69 (9/17/2013)
So I'm a little confused on what to do, there are good arguments for and against certs. I took a pay cut to get this job because I wanted the experience but I am not sure how much longer I can afford to stay. This is the only work experience I have in this field and I'm worried that it won't be enough. There was advice about saying what I have done, projects I've led and initiatives I've taken but will it be enough? Three years ago I was working in the body shop and I'd rather not go back.
If you don't have a 4 year degree, get that first. Out here in the Sacramento valley every job opening I've seen requires a 4 year degree. Some are 4 year or 5 years experience equivalent. That also means if you and another guy interview and you both have 5 years experience but he has a degree he'll get the job over you (all other things being equal).
A degree helps no matter which field you go in. Certs are very, very specific and really don't help much (IMO).
Also try to branch out in SQL at your current position. If they use reporting services, try to help build reports. If they use SSIS, try to get on some of those projects too. Basically try and get on the job experience in as many areas of SQL as possible. Try not to be pigeon holed into just doing stored procedures or something like that. Covering a lot of areas of SQL will help you land your second position because you won't be constrained by qualifications. You will be qualified for a lot more positions.
Lastly, IMO 3 years is enough experience to start looking for your second SQL opportunity. Personally I would enroll in night classes before you start looking, so even though you don't have a degree you can explain you're in school currently working on one. (BS in Computer Sci)
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My SQL Server Blog
September 18, 2013 at 9:55 am
I concur with everything AmenJonathan is saying, but even an associates in CIS is better than nothing, or an associates in computer engineering. I work with a guy that's got an associates in computer engineering from a small school called Spencerian College here in Lexington, but he's the entry level help desk guy for us. I also know a guy that's in his early 30's that's an operations manager for a local large electronics manufacturing plant and he only has an associates in CIS, so it worked for him. He works with DB2 databases and Cisco networks. AmenJonathan is right about the ideal being a BS in CS. That's the gold standard if you want to program, but other degrees work, depending on your focus. But, I've heard California is unique in that there's so much competition there for jobs that it's a different environment and you have a lot of very bright folks there. Especially with Microsoft being just up the road in Redmond.
Depending on your location, and job availability (the demand) vs the number of available programmers (the supply), it may be either harder or easier to get a job with no degree and less experience. Try talking to some of the hiring managers, or at least to HR, at places you'd like to work in your area and find out what they require or would like to see in a potential candidate. Ask them what you can do to improve your chances at a job with them. Make sure you bring an updated well-written resume. They will most likely be happy to at least talk to you and it's a form of networking that might get you in the door. If they see that you're driven and focused and have a goal in mind, that's a positive, and they'll remember your name - yet another way to make your application/resume stand out. Talking to people is free and it's a form of career counseling that might help you in the long run.
Like Grant side, it's an extremely good idea to work on other stuff after hours. Stay after work for a few hours and work on other projects like building WPF or even Win Forms applications or web applications. That link to the career lab I sent earlier talked about trending stuff like MVC, Web API, big data, Erlang, etc. and how that's good stuff to learn - and not many of your degreed competition may have experience there. Books are helpful, or you can even go through Pluralsight courses/videos to help step you through some things. See what your employer will pay for to help you improve and indirectly benefit them. My employer pays for a monthly $50 Pluralsight membership and one of the very eye-opening courses I've taken (okay, I'm still working on it) is the HTML5 Line of Business Apps with Bootstrap, MVC4 and Web API. Wow, good stuff that I haven't worked with previously and it shows you some detail about how to write a clean, modern web app. I also went through the web api course from Jon Flanders titled Introduction to the .NET Web API. The thing that's a bonus with Pluralsight is that they typically don't just show you how to connect a grid or dropdown to a data source. They go through how to use Fiddler and even through in some Visual Studio tips along the way. BTW, according to Stephen Walther's ASP.NET 3.5 book, more developers are now using C# over VB.NET. You may consider switching, especially if local employers use that predominately. I know I've personally seen very little VB.NET jobs in this area.
Another option for you might be to take on a support (help desk, technical support or other?) or IT role first while you're working on that degree. That might help pay you a little better for the time being and get some additional experience. I worked technical support before I had any degree, but it was a coop role. That might be another option for you at some schools. If you can get another programming job that's even better to help get direct experience. But that was my experience at Lexmark without a computer degree - it's definitely a longer and harder process to get better positions with better pay. I knew some guys there that worked software maintenance roles first. We also had test team guys with programming experience there too, so it's a "lesser" position where you can get in the door and hopefully work your way up. Good luck...
September 18, 2013 at 10:54 am
A certification made the difference in getting me my first SQL Server job. It was with the state, which values what they can justify on paper more than what a candidate is capable of. But without the cert, I wouldn't have been considered (based on conversations with my then boss).
The opinions expressed here are absolutely valid and truthful, but they are only the opinions of a slice of the industry. While the SQL Server community is vast, not every hiring manager or HR person is actually plugged into it. Those "not in the know" may not potentially understand the worth (or worthlessness) of a certification and may value it highly. Similar to what Amen said, if two candidates are equal in experience but one has the cert (or degree), it's more easily justified to hire the certified applicant.
I have a degree in Computer Science. I also have the MCTS certs in database administration for SQL Server 2005 and 2008 (very basic, one book/one test). I learned something new each time I studied for them, although I've never used the Service Broker or message queuing in my real life experience (just one example). I underlined "studied" because that what I did. Treat the preparation for the test as the opportunity to expand your knowledge and tailor your learning to your ability to retain what you learned.
If you decide to pursue a degree or a more specific technical certification, you'll obviously need to gauge the time spent vs the "ROI" (Amen and I have discussed this at length). A 2 or 4 year degree potentially would take more time than obtaining a certification.
You'll never stop learning, regardless if it's done "formally" or "informally".
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September 18, 2013 at 11:15 am
I take every opportunity to branch out, all the way to the point where I now answer to 3 different departments!
From the advice given I think I will pursue certs until I reach the point I am not learning anything from them (I currently am learning a lot), while taking classes to get a BS, then I will blog about the whole thing. My life is about to get busy!
Thanks for all the great advice.
September 18, 2013 at 12:45 pm
SQLDCH (9/18/2013)
I also have the MCTS certs in database administration for SQL Server 2005 and 2008 (very basic, one book/one test). I learned something new each time I studied for them, although I've never used the Service Broker or message queuing in my real life experience (just one example). I underlined "studied" because that what I did.
Just curious, in the course of your "studying" for these certification tests did you ever once access a online braindump?:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
September 18, 2013 at 5:24 pm
Grant Fritchey (9/18/2013)
carpainter69 (9/17/2013)
So I'm a little confused on what to do, there are good arguments for and against certs. .... There was advice about saying what I have done, projects I've led and initiatives I've taken but will it be enough? ...I hear you and agree with you. The simple fact is, demonstrated knowledge and ability and work experience are currently the best measures. The certs can help a little, but only a little. The more you do, the more you can do. Start a blog. Start writing down everything you learn. Then point future employers to the blog. "This is some of the stuff I've been working on." I'd respect that way beyond any of the current Microsoft certifications.
That's great advice, carpainter. follow what Grant says, and you will do well. The thing that counts - in fact the ONLY thing that counts with competent recruiting managers is TRACK RECORD.
Tom
September 18, 2013 at 5:26 pm
amenjonathan (9/18/2013)
Certs are very, very specific and really don't help much (IMO).
Not very much? If they help at all, the recruiter is probably an idiot (unless the cert is MCM or MCA or MCSM).
Tom
September 18, 2013 at 9:26 pm
amenjonathan (9/18/2013)
A degree helps no matter which field you go in. Certs are very, very specific and really don't help much (IMO).
If my job is dependent on my having a degree (or certs) versus experience I'm going to look at a different company, quickly.
I have heard of many electricians that would not be hired because they didn't have experience with 480V doing a house contract work that would never be above 220V. I.e. they don't care and don't need to know.
That is like hiring a production DBA to also do dev work or vice-verse.
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Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
September 19, 2013 at 11:42 am
There is merit to what you say, but the hard cold reality today is most HR departments require the piece(s) of paper (college degrees, etc.) for technical positions. You don't get in the door without it. That's just the way it is. No exceptions. Particularly so in the government sector of any kind, but also in the private sector as well..:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
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