August 15, 2014 at 12:22 pm
wwallace-848999 (8/15/2014)
I remember going to Cal Poly and finding out that the Computer Science major was impacted back in the 80's, and the counselor said why not try Math? I was like sure, I get 100's on my Math tests, but what can I do with Math? They said mostly becoming a teacher or rocket science type jobs, similar jobs as a Comp Sci majors, programming mostly. So that is where it all began for me, as my parents met at IBM, and it turns out my mother was a Math major too, but never told me until after I graduated! 🙂 She said she didn't want to influence my decision!So I started out as a programmer for a big aerospace firm, generating reports mostly on big mainframes. Then we were notified of having access to a Cray, a parallel processor, I was like yeah, lets revamp these so they'll run in less than a day!! My boss thought I was a genius, as they ran in hours instead of days! I remember having to cover for someone in the printout room, helping folks solve there computer programming problems. We had access to all the big manuals that everyone hated, JCL, CLISTS, FORTRAN. I was able to solve other's problems way more easier than my own!! So that is when I started debugging more and programming less. They call me the bug finder now, and I've been testing for over 25 years!! And still love learning the new technologies that come thru!! 😎
My Dad went to work in 1962 as a programmer for an aerospace company. He had a BA in English and had worked as a Medic in France during the Korean War. The company had to train all of their recruits from the ground up because there was no such thing as a Computer Science degree at the time.
August 15, 2014 at 12:24 pm
I think your statement that you don't need a degree in Math or CS is something I would disagree with. Assuming that because your history allowed you to succeed, so all others could, isn't accurate. You succeeded because of who you are. Your Chemistry degree shows you have a scientific background, understand logical thinking, and therefore had it easier than others might have.
The reason for a CS degree is to see if you have what it takes. Those who fail at the degree will almost never make it in the field. Those who take other paths may succeed as well, but it won't be as clear cut. I know few communications majors who could work in the technical fields. Nurses and doctors are obviously intelligent, yet few of them have what it takes.
Dave
I have to agree that Mathematics has helped me immensely. Understanding the functions necessary for the executive reporting needs is just once instance of that knowledge that comes to mind as a plus. That knowledge leading to a better path to logical thinking has helped me attain my CS degrees as well. However, I would like to add that learning communication skills will add to our tool bag. 😉
August 15, 2014 at 12:25 pm
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
rshaw 91433 (8/15/2014)
It would be nice if more kids were exposed to what an IT career really is.I've often wondered if other fields have training at that level that's so far removed from what the actual work is. Others have mentioned young people being told that there's a lot of math involved. Maybe the rest of you have had different experiences, but in two decades in IT work I've never needed anything more than a basic understanding of algebra, and even that only rarely.
Yikes!
You work in SQL Server, right? Set based logic is math. Understanding one to many relationships is math. Normalization is math and logic. Everything we do in IT requires math. Just because we don't think of it that way doesn't mean the knowledge we gained was for naught. Math is not just adding and subtracting, it encompasses things like Geometry, logic, sets, relationships... The list goes on.
Examples:
Working with Finance on their applications frequently requires an understanding of accounting, which is math.
Working with the C-Suite to justify investment in a new program, process or service based on ROI requires math.
IP addresses and subnets - math.
Our clinical informatics employees use math all the time when they are developing workflow.
Using Excel to write formulas to manipulate data extracted from a database, so that HR can understand what it means - math.
Dave
August 15, 2014 at 1:17 pm
I don't want my kids to go into IT.
While some work places are great, I see the following too often:
- Long hours are expected of IT workers with no reasonable compensation offered back.
- IT is often thought of as a cost center, not a profit center, and its people are treated worse than the business units.
- IT's expertise on technology is often cast aside because someone read a magazine article while folks wouldn't consider doing this to an accountant or an engineer.
- IT's long hours tend to be nights and weekends, which hamper family life.
- IT's needs, because it is often though of as a cost center, are put as secondary to business' needs. This is even the case when were talking infrastructure upgrades/projects that keep business running. Of course, when those needs aren't met and something from business fails, IT is blamed.
I know this isn't true of all environments. However, it's true enough that it's worrisome about how good a career field will this be in the next 5-10 years?
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
August 15, 2014 at 2:04 pm
djackson 22568 (8/15/2014)
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
rshaw 91433 (8/15/2014)
It would be nice if more kids were exposed to what an IT career really is.I've often wondered if other fields have training at that level that's so far removed from what the actual work is. Others have mentioned young people being told that there's a lot of math involved. Maybe the rest of you have had different experiences, but in two decades in IT work I've never needed anything more than a basic understanding of algebra, and even that only rarely.
...Set based logic is math. Understanding one to many relationships is math. Normalization is math and logic. Everything we do in IT requires math. Just because we don't think of it that way doesn't mean the knowledge we gained was for naught.
I would say that by this thinking everything is math. I took two years of calculus. I've never had any use for it in programming. Set logic? Normalization? I suppose that in theory these things are math. I wouldn't call them that because I could teach someone how to apply third normal form who had no more than middle school algebra skills.
Working with Finance on their applications frequently requires an understanding of accounting, which is math.
I work now on a payroll application. I do not understand the tax code that our application processes, nor do I need to. We have BAs that bridge that gap for me so that I can focus on things like building stored procedures that run efficiently.
IP addresses and subnets - math.
Again, by this thinking everything is math. Yes, math is involved here, but unless you're engineering a router, you do not need an advanced math education to understand IP addressing.
My point isn't that math isn't valuable. In fact, I've often poked fun at people who've stated that they're getting through life without even using the algebra they learned in middle school. If you can figure out when to leave home in order to get to work on time, you've used algebra. In that sense, yes, math really is part of everything.
My point is that advanced education in math is not required, and all us of giving young people the impression that any kind of IT work requires a person to be a math wizard, or even to work extensively with math is, I think, both wrong and wrong-headed. Many people who don't like math and even those who aren't particularly good at it can be highly successful in IT.
August 15, 2014 at 3:31 pm
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
djackson 22568 (8/15/2014)
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
rshaw 91433 (8/15/2014)
It would be nice if more kids were exposed to what an IT career really is.I've often wondered if other fields have training at that level that's so far removed from what the actual work is. Others have mentioned young people being told that there's a lot of math involved. Maybe the rest of you have had different experiences, but in two decades in IT work I've never needed anything more than a basic understanding of algebra, and even that only rarely.
...Set based logic is math. Understanding one to many relationships is math. Normalization is math and logic. Everything we do in IT requires math. Just because we don't think of it that way doesn't mean the knowledge we gained was for naught.
I would say that by this thinking everything is math. I took two years of calculus. I've never had any use for it in programming. Set logic? Normalization? I suppose that in theory these things are math. I wouldn't call them that because I could teach someone how to apply third normal form who had no more than middle school algebra skills.
Working with Finance on their applications frequently requires an understanding of accounting, which is math.
I work now on a payroll application. I do not understand the tax code that our application processes, nor do I need to. We have BAs that bridge that gap for me so that I can focus on things like building stored procedures that run efficiently.
IP addresses and subnets - math.
Again, by this thinking everything is math. Yes, math is involved here, but unless you're engineering a router, you do not need an advanced math education to understand IP addressing.
My point isn't that math isn't valuable. In fact, I've often poked fun at people who've stated that they're getting through life without even using the algebra they learned in middle school. If you can figure out when to leave home in order to get to work on time, you've used algebra. In that sense, yes, math really is part of everything.
My point is that advanced education in math is not required, and all us of giving young people the impression that any kind of IT work requires a person to be a math wizard, or even to work extensively with math is, I think, both wrong and wrong-headed. Many people who don't like math and even those who aren't particularly good at it can be highly successful in IT.
You don't need a lot of formal math education, but you do need to understand logic and set theory and algebra and a little bit of geometry doesn't hurt. You have to understand about base 2 and base 8 and base 16 but you don't necessarily have to be able to work problems in them in your head. Calculus is good if you want to work with graphical applications and/or statistics.
I took Algebra in 9th grade and Geometry in 10th. That was all the math I have needed to work in IT since 1978. I completely disagree with the relatively new, to my knowledge, policy at local community colleges that it is necessary to complete calculus in order to be prepared to learn programming. I did take a math class in the last five years, Calculus I. It was interesting but I didn't feel I had the necessary mental energy to go on to Calculus II. (I'm getting old and tired.) Both were required if I wanted to take a class in Visual C#. Seriously? OK, so it would be useful if I were doing a lot of statistical analysis, but I'm not, and I don't expect to.
August 15, 2014 at 5:00 pm
djackson 22568 (8/15/2014)
I would say that we need more of the right people, not more people. There are too many in technical positions that should not be, which hurts all of us.What do I mean by qualified? Well gender, age, religion, none of that has any bearing whatsoever. What does matter is having a logical mind, a solid math background, a willingness to tackle difficult issues, sometimes without support.
Creativity is beneficial in some technical fields like UI design and Web Design. However too many people who perform those roles are clueless when it comes to logic, which leads to a myriad of user interfaces that make no sense. For example, finding what you need on most web sites is an exercise in futility unless you use Google to search the site!
.
Two thing to say here:
math is probably not central to IT success unless you are working in aerospace or engineering fields and supporting those activities. I studied Sociology and Psychology, and did fine in computer technology.
Central to success in IT is being able to visualize the abstract, having an empathy for logic and understanding relationships, not only between data, but the logic flow and anticipation of results.
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
August 15, 2014 at 9:24 pm
skeleton567 (8/15/2014)
djackson 22568 (8/15/2014)
I would say that we need more of the right people, not more people. There are too many in technical positions that should not be, which hurts all of us.What do I mean by qualified? Well gender, age, religion, none of that has any bearing whatsoever. What does matter is having a logical mind, a solid math background, a willingness to tackle difficult issues, sometimes without support.
Creativity is beneficial in some technical fields like UI design and Web Design. However too many people who perform those roles are clueless when it comes to logic, which leads to a myriad of user interfaces that make no sense. For example, finding what you need on most web sites is an exercise in futility unless you use Google to search the site!
.
Two thing to say here:
math is probably not central to IT success unless you are working in aerospace or engineering fields and supporting those activities. I studied Sociology and Psychology, and did fine in computer technology.
I never said you had to have a math degree. However math skills are central to everything we do. You succeeding shows you are at a minimum competent in that area. Sociology frequently uses statistics. or math. I would bet you had a significant number of math courses, at least if your college was at all similar to mine.
As to only being required in aerospace or engineering, that is just not true. Every business has a finance department, unless they are so small one person does it all. Finance uses software. Supporting or writing software for finance requires an understanding of math. I could make the same argument for every area of every company.
Central to success in IT is being able to visualize the abstract, having an empathy for logic and understanding relationships, not only between data, but the logic flow and anticipation of results.
Um, yes of course, like I said, math. Every point you made is math related. Logic is not a social skill, it is a math skill. Logic flow is math. Think shortest path algorithms.
Math is not limited to Operations Research and DiffEq. Math pervades every aspect of human life. Even a chef uses math! Good math skills are critical to computer science.
Dave
August 15, 2014 at 9:40 pm
We use math every day even if we don't realize it.
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
August 16, 2014 at 4:20 am
I think that often the requirement for Computing, Maths or, possibly, Science degree is because it shows an aptitude to the type of work you will encounter and an acceptance that you will be working at a desk. There is no dancing and not the kind of drama that leads to pauses and sideways stares 😉
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
August 16, 2014 at 8:42 am
Gary Varga (8/16/2014)
I think that often the requirement for Computing, Maths or, possibly, Science degree is because it shows an aptitude to the type of work you will encounter and an acceptance that you will be working at a desk.
And maybe, just maybe, this is an outdated understanding. My last math training was two years of algebra in HS completed in 1961. But I finished my IT career with one of my main functions being to test, debug, and correct developer SQL code, including but not limited to financial and reporting functions.
I stick to my original position that intuitive thinking and visualization of data and relationships and anticipation of results is most critical. This to me is far more encompassing than math skills, which are only a small part. The math skills are far more likely just EVIDENCE of the underlying ability. Logic and intuitive understanding are so much more than math.
Rick
One of the best days of my IT career was the day I told my boss if the problem was so simple he should go fix it himself.
August 16, 2014 at 9:29 am
skeleton567 (8/16/2014)
Gary Varga (8/16/2014)
I think that often the requirement for Computing, Maths or, possibly, Science degree is because it shows an aptitude to the type of work you will encounter and an acceptance that you will be working at a desk.And maybe, just maybe, this is an outdated understanding. My last math training was two years of algebra in HS completed in 1961. But I finished my IT career with one of my main functions being to test, debug, and correct developer SQL code, including but not limited to financial and reporting functions.
I stick to my original position that intuitive thinking and visualization of data and relationships and anticipation of results is most critical. This to me is far more encompassing than math skills, which are only a small part. The math skills are far more likely just EVIDENCE of the underlying ability. Logic and intuitive understanding are so much more than math.
I totally get your point but for some roles in IT, development being one in my experience, the lack of an application of a scientific process to the activity of software development can lead to shoddy results without a clear understanding that they are let alone why.
Not all roles require this. Some do. And before anyone regales us with tales which are exceptions, the degree is only indicative i.e. some with a degree in the subjects mentioned will not be suitable whereas some without will be.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
August 18, 2014 at 1:33 am
K. Brian Kelley (8/15/2014)
I don't want my kids to go into IT.While some work places are great, I see the following too often:
- Long hours are expected of IT workers with no reasonable compensation offered back.
- IT is often thought of as a cost center, not a profit center, and its people are treated worse than the business units.
- IT's expertise on technology is often cast aside because someone read a magazine article while folks wouldn't consider doing this to an accountant or an engineer.
- IT's long hours tend to be nights and weekends, which hamper family life.
- IT's needs, because it is often though of as a cost center, are put as secondary to business' needs. This is even the case when were talking infrastructure upgrades/projects that keep business running. Of course, when those needs aren't met and something from business fails, IT is blamed.
I know this isn't true of all environments. However, it's true enough that it's worrisome about how good a career field will this be in the next 5-10 years?
+1. The truth will ouch.
August 18, 2014 at 11:23 am
If I could go back, I would have never choose this field of work. I would have continued to be a hobbyist, and found something else to do. I still love programming, but I wouldn't miss doing it for money. I also wouldn't recommend it to anyone I care about.
August 18, 2014 at 11:42 am
I think that CS should not be a standalone field of knowledge. Computing professionals, to be of value, must understand the use of their information.
CS knowledge is essential, but only useful if it's combined with other knowledge: accounting, finance, marketing, medicine, law, engineering, etc. Without a concrete tie in to the real world, CS is just an abstraction.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
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