June 2, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item The Problem Is You
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June 3, 2009 at 5:57 am
I would agree with the general thrust of your editorial, but I think it highlights two factors that are just ignored to the detriment of the general computing public.
First, there seems to be a presumption by Microsoft, sites like SSC and so many others, that everyone in the world who needs a database needs it for a web site. This is not only an incorrect assumption, by my experience, its totally backwards. I spend my days, and have spent my career working with MS products and yet I would venture a guess that 80% of the clients I deal with are using SQL Server (or another database) for Windows applications NOT web sites. In fact, the biggest complaint I hear from my developers and developers in general is that most all of MS's help these days presumes a person is working solely with the web. This is (again, by my experience) absolutely backwards - most are working in-house or in some cases, commercial distributed apps - NOT web sites.
Second, when MS dumped FoxPro and the death knell for XBase was sounded, this has created a massive hole in the general office computing public. Now, a person wishing to do a small project that needs a database has to go to Access (which is considered a mess by most people I know using it) or they have to go to SQL Server. This is like trying to clean your fingernails with a backhoe. Completely absurd. Thus, you have marginally talented (at database) people trying to work with something like SQL Server. Instead of being able to do quick DB projects that used to take a day, maybe two, they now have to become SQL experts very quickly - which is in my view, almost impossible.
Thus, I do agree with the general thrust that "the problem is you" - but the problem is "you" because MS (and others) have never understood the mid to low range user markets. These are often departmental users in very large corporations - or indeed small to medium businesses. These folks have now been left without a good simple database system and thus SQL Server falls into their laps. Hence, to say the problem is you - well, what other choice is there?
If someone asks you to go to the store and gives you a 747 to get there, do you blame yourself for not knowing how to pilot such a machine - or do you blame the dolt who did not provide a simple, reasonable way to get there?
June 3, 2009 at 7:31 am
One thing the blog didn't mention (nor you, Steve) is the COST of having a poorly set up server, and then bringing in a DBA (possibly years) after the fact to try and clean it up. It's a lot more expensive to try and fix it later than it would be to simply set it up correctly in the first place, and have a little maintenance done on a regular basis.
Steph Brown
June 3, 2009 at 7:57 am
I have another example. Here in the U.S. we have something called "Stock Car" racing. There are around the world similar events where one can enter ordinary vehicles into competition. This is contrasted with purpose built racing cars like Formula One.
It would, therefore, be possible to drive a car directly from the show room to the track and go racing. What kind of a race? No matter. Speed trial (drag racing), endurance, whatever. It's all racing and uses the same car, right? As Clarkson on "Top Gear" says: "How hard can it be?" :w00t:
ATBCharles Kincaid
June 3, 2009 at 8:14 am
I also agree with the blog 'sometimes the problem is you', I get to work with both SQL Server and Oracle. SQL Server works very well for our small to medium size databases and we use Oracle for the large stuff mostly because the vendors applications only run on Oracle. I am the first and only DBA in my organization, I started with Oracle and got my degree from the 'school of hard knocks'. SQL Server came along later and I was required to master it as well. Both Oracle and SQL Server have their strong and weak points and there are many things to love and hate about both. But as mentioned, the idea that SQL Server is 'set it and forget it' is definitely one of SQL Servers bad points. This missperception got so bad here our former CIO looked me in the eye one day and asked me if I knew how many SQL Server DBA's there were, I said no, and he very earnestly said none! Where do ideas like that come from? This guy was supposed to pretty smart. As a result, many of the application analysts were installing SQL Server without consulting me and eventually guess who got to clean up the mess?! But as a DBA how do we change this perception without sounding like we are justifying our job to someone who thinks our services are not required?
I must say as someone mentioned earlier, the SQL Server community is IMHO second to none. I have roughly eight years of SQL Server experience and in that time I have never called Microsoft for support. If I have a question, I post it here at SSC and I have always received an answer, wonderful folks!
My two cents.....
June 3, 2009 at 8:41 am
do you ever read what you write? 3 more simple mistakes today... not to mention to daily misuse of commas...
June 3, 2009 at 8:43 am
Blandry brings up a great point. I loved FP and then VFP in the 90s. Thought it was far, far superior to small/medium projects on or off SQL Server. We migrated one thing off .DBFs to SQL Server and it worked great. Client/Server is certainly not dead. Heck, even some of the apps on my G1 mobile phone are client server. I'd rather run Twitter that way that hit the web site. Wayyyyyy faster.
SQL Server is in a weird place. It goes from mobile phones to 64 core machines, but it definitely gets more support at the high end. Smaller apps are often just assumed to work, and I agree with Blandry there.
I do think we try to focus on smaller projects, more real world examples. We don't publish enterprise stuff much, and I do hear about that. It's more a MS/SQLCAT/SQL Mag area that focuses on larger systems.
And I don't think most apps are on the web, but there are a lot of them both inside and outside of companies. Lots of companies have moved to web deployments internally because it seems to lower the hassles with particular machines. Back to the mainframe days, which had advantages.
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June 3, 2009 at 8:46 am
Blog and editorial make sense to me.
I haven't run into the "don't need a DBA" concept yet. The "can't afford one" idea, oh yeah, run into that all the time. In lots of cases, it's even partially true. But haven't run into the "don't need one" idea yet. Maybe I don't get out enough is all. 🙂
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June 3, 2009 at 8:55 am
steve.neumann (6/3/2009)
do you ever read what you write? 3 more simple mistakes today... not to mention to daily misuse of commas...
I'll admit that some things get less review than others, and I am liberal with my commas. It's a casual style that I sometimes take too far. My apologies.
But thanks for the public insult. Always makes the day start nicely.
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June 3, 2009 at 9:03 am
steve.neumann (6/3/2009)
do you ever read what you write? 3 more simple mistakes today... not to mention to daily misuse of commas...
The irony of a post complaining about misuse of commas, written in this style, is just too, too much!
I sincerely hope it was intentional that you didn't capitalize the first letters of your sentences, had an extraneous "to" in there which should probably have been "the", misused ellipses, and didn't terminate your second sentence at all. I probably shouldn't mention the standardized style points of spelling out numbers in this type of writing, but I'll give them a passing mention. Same goes for not proper-casing your own name, though that could be an intentional "signature style".
(It makes me wonder if "neuman" is a property or a method of "steve", but that's just me overgeeking the thing.)
Normally, I'd just ignore that kind of thing, or at most send a private message, but this one was just irresistably bad.
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June 3, 2009 at 9:47 am
GSquared (6/3/2009)
steve.neumann (6/3/2009)
do you ever read what you write? 3 more simple mistakes today... not to mention to daily misuse of commas...The irony of a post complaining about misuse of commas, written in this style, is just too, too much!
I sincerely hope it was intentional that you didn't capitalize the first letters of your sentences, had an extraneous "to" in there which should probably have been "the", misused ellipses, and didn't terminate your second sentence at all. I probably shouldn't mention the standardized style points of spelling out numbers in this type of writing, but I'll give them a passing mention. Same goes for not proper-casing your own name, though that could be an intentional "signature style".
(It makes me wonder if "neuman" is a property or a method of "steve", but that's just me overgeeking the thing.)
Normally, I'd just ignore that kind of thing, or at most send a private message, but this one was just irresistably bad.
+1!!
Best,
Kevin G. Boles
SQL Server Consultant
SQL MVP 2007-2012
TheSQLGuru on googles mail service
June 3, 2009 at 9:53 am
Very true words Steve, and the article you link to is spot on as well.
One exception I will take to what you said: "Someone that's worked with SQL Serve for years learned a lot about the platform, what works, what doesn't, and what tools to apply in different situations." I have done a fair bit of tech interviews for a client looking for some DBAs over the past 16 months or so and I have been stunned by the incredibly lacking knowledge and skills of supposedly "senior" DBA and SQL Dev candidates with many years of exclusive SQL Server experience.
I will add that I have not been to a client yet in 10+ years of independent consulting and 4 years of third-party consulting before that where the client did even 25% of the things against/to/about SQL Server optimally. While it CAN be VERY functional with nothing other than a default installation, it truly is a DAMN COMPLEX system that requires SIGNIFICANT proper 'stuff' to do all that anything more than a very small shop requires/wants.
Best,
Kevin G. Boles
SQL Server Consultant
SQL MVP 2007-2012
TheSQLGuru on googles mail service
June 3, 2009 at 9:55 am
Lots of typos today Steve. You feeling OK?
June 3, 2009 at 10:04 am
Dan Guzman (6/3/2009)
Lots of typos today Steve. You feeling OK?
See the video podcast. Alergies are nothing to sneeze at. You go to lay down. Your head hits the pillow and then you feel dizzy. The room spins on multiple axises. That's all BEFORE you take the drugs.
ATBCharles Kincaid
June 3, 2009 at 10:12 am
It is a double-edged sword. Ease of installation and use gets SQL Server out in many places. And from my perspective, the more SQL Server installations, the better for us. But easy installation does lead to a sense that you just set it up, and forget it. And, SQL Server does have many self monitoring switches that make it more hands off.
Having a story where SQL Server can move from a small platform to a large platform is a good story to tell. It offers an upgrade path, and that is an important aspect on the business side. We collectively just need to set expectations that having access to a DBA is still necessary, just maybe not as often, and having a DBA or data architect design the schema lowers your total cost to operate and manage the system.
And I have gone into organizations where the developers and/or management had the belief that they did not need a DBA or any database insight. Personally, I like to go into places where they have hit the wall. Then, I can go in, fix things and offer how they can design an improved system.
The more you are prepared, the less you need it.
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