September 8, 2014 at 10:11 am
djackson 22568 (9/8/2014)
...There is the issue of qualified attendees, but also an issue of qualified instructors. Sometimes we get a great instructor, sometimes an acceptable instructor. Unfortunately we sometimes get someone who is a waste of space at the front of the room.
Yes. Sad but too often true.
A long time ago I was on a C++/UML training course for a company that I had just joined. The external training company sent someone to run it in-house and, as such, my employers said that as there was a space I might as well go on it (the general understanding was that I might pick up something but I didn't require it). The sad fact was by the end of the course the instructor had got enough wrong, or just simply couldn't answer questions I could, that almost after everything he did he then asked for my confirmation. This made him look less competent than he was and made me look like a total big head (which was more accurate).
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
September 8, 2014 at 10:17 am
Agree with you Dave. Wasn't advancing the argument, just noting it.
Hiring, and training people, is a cost of business. Do a good job and treat them decently and it's a good investment.
In terms of classes and instructors, I have no idea how we do this better. Like to see SQLskills and BrentOzar doing some work here. Need to get more in a way that increases skills for people.
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September 8, 2014 at 10:23 am
The DBAs to be scared of are the ones who can't reliably do their jobs. They are just as likely to have trained as DBAs as to be accidental DBAs with no training. So as teh editorial seemed to suggest that the problem was the accidental DBAs it got off on the wrong foot with me. But that isn't important, I guess - there is a real problem out there that some people are working beyond their capability, and others are working beyond their knowledge and are not given a chance to acquire the knowledge they need.
It is a training problem: managers need to be trained to either arrange for their people what learning is needed, either by providing some competent teaching or by giving them time (and access to a sandpit machine and to the internet and a budget for textbooks) so that they can learn for themselves or - and this is probably preferable - both.
Tom
September 8, 2014 at 10:35 am
Yes, definitely this is a problem. However, as a provider of support for these individuals, I would think that you would want them to get the most help from one of the most comprehensive SQL Server forum/article sites available (your site included). Not to miss your point though, I think this travels across IT functions, including Business Analysis, Code developers (web, middleware, process, etc.), and management especially. It is scary sometimes, but if you are in the right position to oversee these DBAs and do some mentoring, it can turn out pretty well in my experience. Of course, if they doing enough damage, they may be hitting the asphalt, so to speak.
September 8, 2014 at 11:18 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/8/2014)
There's also the issue with finding training. How do you train a DBA? New Horizons classes? MS certification? I think we've not done a good job overall in technology of finding a way to train people well. Or separate those that can't/don't want to learn from those that do.
Companies can resolve this a number of ways:
Continued Education - Company pays to send you to a few classes. (COSTLY)
Online Training through HR - Some companies use HR Agencies that provide online training through their services.
Contract Senior DBA Temporarily - For me, contracting an expert to get you moving forward works well.
I have experienced all 3 in my accidental role in the database world. Online training through certain HR companies provide everything you need to get certified. Although certifications is not everything in what we do, having that resource to learn the material was critical for my development. I have online videos, online DBA mentors and practice exams for a number of MSSQL certifications. It's all at no cost for me. I just pay for the exams when I'm ready.
The most rewarding was contracting additional help for the projects. I made it clear that additional help from a senior DBA would be critical to my success. Therefore, I was allowed to recruit some good people to help the project while also training me to be better. In the end, it works out the best because not only can learn a lot from working beside some really good senior level DBA's, but they can also evaluate you to see if you're even ready before moving forward without their help or being on contract.
September 8, 2014 at 12:20 pm
lshanahan (9/8/2014)
There's that old saw: "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them." (Wasn't that Shakespeare?)So I guess we can re-phrase it: "Some are born DBAs, some learn to be a DBA and some have DBA thrust upon their performance evaluation."
I've been in IT for a couple decades at least and fiddling with computers since the 8-bit days. I've never been a formal DBA in that it has never been part of my job title, but I've done "DBA work" for quite some time. Most of my time was in help desk and deskside support, but over the years I've always gravitated to building databases and applications to use them. I've built several LOB solutions that completely revolutionized how the companies I worked for manage their businesses. I won't say they were perfect or even "right", but I put a lot of time and effort into understanding the whys and wherefores of what I was doing instead of just copying and pasting code from a website. I've also never been afraid to look at my own work and say, "What on God's Green Earth was I thinking?" and implement a better way as I learn new techniques. But on the other hand, neither have I been afraid to use a technique that isn't necessarily "best practice" yet is one I understand well enough to use with a high degree of certainty I won't screw things up given what I'm working with. And I always have a fallback plan. That F5 key scares the crap out of me whenever something I wrote is going into production, but I figure as long as I can roll it back without losing anything, I can push it.
There are a lot of places that methodology wouldn't be acceptable - and rightly so - but those are the places where I would expect a lot of senior/junior mentoring to be happening. The situation I'm in is just little old me trying to do what is usually done by a whole team of developers and striving to do it the best I know how given there's a lot of "how" I know I don't know.
There have been a lot of good replies to this editorial, and I think I agree with all of them -- from the rants to the 'hey, for better or worse that scary dba you're talking about is me'. I don't know if there is really one single thing to blame for this. MS has done a good job at making sql server pretty stable and 'easy' to use, at least compared to oracle on one hand and postgres on the other. One downside of that is that companies can get away with not going out and hiring a LICENSED dba.
lshanahan's experience is much like mine -- our company was small, but is no longer. Nearly 20 years ago there wasn't a database here, so I taught myself access and starting building what has become our MES -- now of course running on SQL Server. We now have a team of 4, as well as an infrastructure team, and still no 'DBA'. Why? Because when I present the list of all the things that we aren't doing but should be, as well as a price tag for it, the owner walks away. So we try and get by, and so far it has worked, though not without some very very close calls. He has the luck of the irish, in my opinion.
To his credit we are encouraged to get as much training as we can, so it isn't as if we're all thrashing about in the darkness. But there is sooooo much to sql server.......
September 8, 2014 at 2:40 pm
I agree with the general ideas stated here. There are some Scary DBAs. The reasons for this are varied, but still it is scary.
In a day where we know so much about so many things, to do so little to secure all of it is silly! But day by day we allow those who are not trained, who go searching for the most elementary information as to how to do their job, to continue on without us giving help, or them otherwise finding it.
But this is not new, nor is it different from other fields. We all suffer from information overload on the theory and the future, but we lack the basic information as to how to start the engine. We have tossed the Procedure Manual, or the Runbook and have assumed that people will just pick it up. but how can they pick it up when it is either too easy, and we have made it seem too complicated, or we have assumed that it is easy and it is complicated.
Somewhere along the line we missed the mark and are suffering for it. Someone decides that the bottom line we must focus on is the amount of money left after the bills are paid, when really the bottom line is can anyone really do the job that needs to be done?
I guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed, but if we would not run so threadbare we would not need so many heros.
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
September 8, 2014 at 3:08 pm
For me, a real scary dba is one who insists on not learning anything new, and continuing to do the same thing day in and day out.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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September 8, 2014 at 3:55 pm
I agree with many of the comments in this exchange, but I would like to put another word on the table - APTITUDE.
I appreciate a nice-looking house, but you could train me for years and I would still stink as an interior decorator.
I think the human brain and body is very intriguing, but you could train me for years and I would still stink as a surgeon.
Do not mistake interest for aptitude, or vice versa. They are very different, but both are necessary.
It can be very difficult to judge technical aptitude in a candidate for employment.
Some people are not honest on résumés and weak technical interviews may not catch a lack of aptitude.
Some people learn enough buzzwords to sound impressive and weak technical interviews may not catch a lack of aptitude.
Even strong technical interviews do not necessarily catch a lack of aptitude. Some people can answer technical questions all day long and still stink at applying technology to solve a particular problem.
September 8, 2014 at 4:31 pm
My last company would occasionally send me out to New Horizons for training. The would also have you sign an agreement that if you left the company before six months (not terminated) you would have to pay back for a portion of the course.
That sort of locked us in for a while for the company to recover the costs of training.
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
September 9, 2014 at 9:57 am
This has been around for many, many years. While not directly applicable to DBA's, I remember when the guy working on my car's A/C said he was getting out of the business to be a Lotus Notes Developer. (OK, a bit dated, but still relevant!)
Many companies focus on getting the cheapest labor, somehow thinking that if they have passed a test, or can answer a few questions they know what they are doing.
Not long ago, I had to fix a database that was designed by a person who had worked at Oracle. He was the Oracle guy, so it must be good (until it constantly crashed).
But this is a good thing. The smart companies survive, while the stupid eventually die.
So choose your employer carefully!
The more you are prepared, the less you need it.
September 9, 2014 at 10:01 am
DBA-Thinker (9/8/2014)
I agree with many of the comments in this exchange, but I would like to put another word on the table - APTITUDE.It can be very difficult to judge technical aptitude in a candidate for employment.
Some people are not honest on résumés and weak technical interviews may not catch a lack of aptitude.
Some people learn enough buzzwords to sound impressive and weak technical interviews may not catch a lack of aptitude.
Even strong technical interviews do not necessarily catch a lack of aptitude. Some people can answer technical questions all day long and still stink at applying technology to solve a particular problem.
I understand your point but I feel you can conduct an interview that will expose who is qualified. Asking questions is one thing, but I have been on plenty of interviews where I was given a scenario and asked to describe how I would solve the problem. I have been asked to write pseudo code. I have been asked to write using a language such as C++.
You can design an interview that works. The issue is that HR too often is afraid of it being viewed as discriminatory.
Dave
September 9, 2014 at 10:04 am
Jim P. (9/8/2014)
My last company would occasionally send me out to New Horizons for training. The would also have you sign an agreement that if you left the company before six months (not terminated) you would have to pay back for a portion of the course.That sort of locked us in for a while for the company to recover the costs of training.
18 months, required certification. Then recertification required every 12 months. Up to $10,000.
🙁
Dave
September 11, 2014 at 5:02 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/8/2014)
Certainly people need some training, though I understand companies being reluctant to train people too much as the investment might not pay off if the person leaves. I'd argue you could contract and structure that between parties, but most managers and employees don't have experience or an idea of how to approach that subject.There's also the issue with finding training. How do you train a DBA? New Horizons classes? MS certification? I think we've not done a good job overall in technology of finding a way to train people well. Or separate those that can't/don't want to learn from those that do.
Personally, I'm well impressed with Pluralsight. Cost effective, good quality with a range of levels and if it's a corporate package you get tracking and testing modules you can wave at HR to prove that the time "The Resource" has spent at home or locked in a cupboard onsite for training has been productive.
Disclaim Disclaimer - I have nothing to do with Pluralsight
I'm a DBA.
I'm not paid to solve problems. I'm paid to prevent them.
September 11, 2014 at 5:12 am
andrew gothard (9/11/2014)
Personally, I'm well impressed with Pluralsight.
I love Pluralsight. I've started downloading their courses and playing them (audio-only) via the car's sound system when driving to work and back. Makes that 45 minutes every day a lot more enjoyable. Sure, don't get the full experience of the course without the slides/demos, but get enough.
And now they've added 3D modelling and CGI courses as well *heaven*
Disclaimer: I get a free subscription to Pluralsight.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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