March 6, 2009 at 7:33 am
The basic point in my mind is that unions try to make everyone "above average". The best of us would see our benefits and pay go down, the worst would see those things improve. Your workplace rewards would be less about your skills and value and negotiating skills and more about how long you've been there.
I hate any form of "entitlement", and unions are right up there with paying folks to not work (unemployment) or have kids (welfare).
Student of SQL and Golf, Master of Neither
March 6, 2009 at 7:35 am
I got married a few years ago. My wife and I are both middle aged. She wanted to move from the city out to the suburbs where I live. She's a teacher and hasn't been able to keep her job as she's the lowest person on the totem pole. So, every Spring the dreaded news comes out that she has to find another job. Each year it has been incredibly difficult to find a job. We think it's because of her age and her masters in education. They only want to hire those they can pay $25,000. The first few years were just substituting, so she wasn't working every day. We hear quite frequently that the person who eventually gets the job knows someone either on the school board or elsewhere which gives them a shoe-in. Later we hear they come in late, don't do any work, and leave early! :crazy:
The union has been pretty useless. I'd like to see more union involvement to help keep jobs for people who just got one. Also, they could be a bit more involved in the selection process to ensure no-nepotism and who you know nonsense.
March 6, 2009 at 7:40 am
A paid for trip to PASS or SQLBITS might be nice. Not necessarily every year but every 2-3 years isn't unreasonable. I've been around long enough to negotiate most everything else I want.
Francis
March 6, 2009 at 7:47 am
If Unions are so wonderful, then why don't they function as employment agencies and provide employees to employers for a flat fee and the unions would be responsible for the benefits and such?
March 6, 2009 at 7:47 am
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My wish would be to have SQLServerCentral discontinue the practice of having to login when one wants read some of your articles. Having been in the computer industry for over 40 years I am somewhat familiar with Data Processing. I would imagine that SQLServerCentral has stored a profile of my membership somewhere on their server. This would be proven out by the fact that you are sending me e-mails. Now when I read these e-mails and I find an article of interest you make me login in order to read it. That is a colossal waste of time. If you are sending me notification that I should read some article you should assume that I am allowed to to do so or otherwise do not send me the notification to read it in the first place.
Thanks.
March 6, 2009 at 7:48 am
I was surprised at the holidays in USA, but then your wages are higher than in UK. I get 33 holidays plus public holidays, plus pension.
But those were won by the union. A lot of people complain about their union but it is only as good as its members.
March 6, 2009 at 7:49 am
We were told to suspend our disagreements with unionization for purposes of this article so here goes...
Wow, this is really hard - Ouch - Man, my head is ready to blow up and I haven't even started yet...
OK. I think I can do it:
I'll chime in for guaranteed training (x days a year including reimbursement for books)
More vacation time would be nice (of course, if I'm called every day while out when there are problems a vacation is somewhat abstract)
Yes, telecommuting would be nice.
Oh, the pain - the disagreements are ready to burst - I guess I'll sign off before they come out...
___________________________________________________
“Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.”
March 6, 2009 at 7:53 am
Rob Hershfield (3/6/2009)
How about creating an "official non-union" to publish a reasonable list of benefits that employers should expect to offer in order to attract and retain good employees. Workers could voluntarily sign it like a petition to demonstrate mass support and companies could voluntarily comply to generate positive publicity (the carrot) and to avoid unionization (the stick).
Great idea.
In the old days of medieval Europe, these were called "guilds". Some are suggesting that we return to this concept. Occasionally, businesses are interested in doing the right thing, and the right thing can be the profitable thing. Maybe it's our job to let them know what that is.
___________________________________________________
“Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.”
March 6, 2009 at 8:01 am
I vehemently oppose unionizing. At one point, they were absolutely necessary -- that time is past. "Do this or else..." becomes extortion when it can shut down your business and you legally cannot hire others. I wouldn't trade less freedom for more of anything.
I am in the US. Vacation is usually negotiable within reason -- if you come from a job with 3 weeks, and you ask, the new company will usually accomodate you. Four weeks is tougher, but can be done depending on the position.
All of the US manufacturers I have been with have 10 holidays a year.
Sick time varies so much it is crazy. Last company I worked for I had saved up 90 sick days (10 days per year) -- they changed policy and "poof" they were gone. Most manufacturers now use the Toyota approach. No set sick days -- you work it out with your manager; just expect it to come up in an evaluation.
March 6, 2009 at 8:01 am
I'm with Grant and Tim: unions have no business in IT.
Full disclosure: i'm a developer, not a DBA, so my experiences differ from most others.
I don't really get calls or after hours emergency work, so i can't say that any revision is needed there.
I'd love to be able to telecommute, but it's unrealistic because i have to be immediately available to clients, and i'll often be bumped around between different projects in a given day. It helps to have face-to-face interaction when getting briefed on new stuff.
I already have health insurance benefits at work; it's nothing fantastic but it works for me.
i could definately go for better chairs; on the other hand, i'd rather have the opportunity to just walk around outside for, say, fifteen minutes each day.
i think it's pretty hard to improve the lot of many folks in IT. We've got it pretty good, as such things go. The industry has been shaped by its pioneers, and in the case of IT, most of those people were quite intelligent and dedicated. They worked the way they wanted to while producing results, and set the stage for those of us who have come later. We're (generally, of course) paid well, have benefits, and demand a certain amount of respect in the workplace. The only way that i can think of to make the situation better is more of the same; bigger salaries, better benefits (more complete medical insurance coverage or some such), more vacation.
Things could be better, but not by a huge amount.
March 6, 2009 at 8:05 am
Hans Munkwitz (3/6/2009)
[font="Arial"][/font]My wish would be to have SQLServerCentral discontinue the practice of having to login when one wants read some of your articles. Having been in the computer industry for over 40 years I am somewhat familiar with Data Processing. I would imagine that SQLServerCentral has stored a profile of my membership somewhere on their server. This would be proven out by the fact that you are sending me e-mails. Now when I read these e-mails and I find an article of interest you make me login in order to read it. That is a colossal waste of time. If you are sending me notification that I should read some article you should assume that I am allowed to to do so or otherwise do not send me the notification to read it in the first place.
Thanks.
There's a "Remember Me" option on the login page that makes it so you don't have to log in from that computer.
I've entered my password for this site so infrequently that, when I need to do so (new comp or some such), I have to look it up.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 6, 2009 at 8:14 am
On the subject of unions, and to hit the cheese quota for the day and copy everyone else, just remember the performance difference between Union and Union All.
I think a better question would have been, "What benefit would you like, if you could get it through negotiation of some sort?" Leave out the union question altogether.
With that in mind, I'd actually rather that I had a few less default perks/benefits and a few more dollars. Employers have to keep the total cost of employment in their accounting. Extra days off? That means that many more employees and managers they have to keep on payroll to cover the time, or that much less production getting done, either way, there's a cost to the employer. Nicer chairs, or any other facility? Definite cost for that. About the only one that increases revenue/decreases costs is telecommuting, which generally does both. So I'm in favor of that one, but the rest, I'd really rather have a bigger paycheck and less "benefits".
If I'm telecommuting, I don't need my employer to provide an ergo chair, keyboard, better lighting, a thermostat that some moron doesn't set at 6 Kelvin, etc. Reduced stress (real commuting is definitely a cause of stress for most people) will reduce medical expenses. Reduced travel will directly reduce my expenses, which is effectively an increase in pay. And so on.
I haven't needed a dentist in years, but I get dental insurance from my employer. They're definitely paying for it. I'd rather they paid me instead. And so on.
That's my take on it.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 6, 2009 at 8:25 am
I don't think unions are needed these days in business IT but they are desperately needed in the video game programming part of the sector. That's another issue though.
Regarding the U.S. standard of 2 weeks -that is indeed still true for companies that are not by their own nature high tech. Software companies, consultancies and other companies that hire mostly highly skilled workers have a higher minimum. But, when interviewed at my current job which (although software development) is not in a high tech industry, the company standard is two weeks INCLUDING sick time... needless to say I had to negotiate since I already had four weeks at my previous job and wasn't about to go backwards. I always negotiate for more vacation time instead of more money for a position, and for some reason HR is always surprised by this. Apparently people in the U.S. are satisfied with the minimum, and that's why it isn't changing fast. But vacation is worth money to me and assuming the job pays enough to pay the bills, I'd rather have vacation than extra money.
I think people in the U.S. would be healthier and happier with more vacation overall. We have too much stress and depression, it seems like everyone and their uncle is on SSRI's for depression or related syndromes...maybe if we could relax more we'd be happier?
Back to the theoretical union question - comp time after a crunch is a big one. Companies love to remind you you're salaried when they're asking you to work nights and weekends then conveniently forget it when you want to leave at 4 one day to catch your kid's football game even though you worked all weekend.
Ergonomic stuff is nice too, but I've been lucky my last few jobs and had that.
Training, honestly I don't really care - I tend to be a self-trainer (my current employer offered to send me to Silverlight training, I declined and just asked to be left to my own devices for a week...and I figured it out just fine).
Certifications - if they want me to have them, they can pay for them - I'd rather spend my training time learning new stuff though than proving I can memorize obscure details of old technologies.
Telecommuting - I would love this. That is one thing I miss in my current job. In my last job I worked from home usually two days a week and was more productive those days than the ones I had to go in. Here though, in the "traditional, non-tech" environment upper management likes to be able to watch your clock and make sure you aren't slacking (even though everything they asked for is getting done).
Actually that's probably a big thing now that I mention it, though not something a union can easily do - get management to stop micromanaging and just leave you alone to get your work done 🙂
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant
March 6, 2009 at 8:30 am
I'll go down the list posted:
Retraining - Some guarantee of xx days of training for every xx years of service if they get rid of your technology?
Most companies offer some type of education reimbursement, but most of the time tie it to degree programs. It should be simple to expand this to cover technical training/retraining. Unfortunately there are few good professional arbiters to rate this training so a company knows whether it is valuable or just an invitation to pick up useless certs. The HR depts do not usually have the skills or resources available to make these evals.
Ergo Chairs - Or any other equipment that might make you more productive for your whole career
Do you really mean 'Ego' chairs? :>| If you really want something like this, buy it yourself.
Extra vacation - The US standard is still 2 weeks, though many companies combine sick and vacation time as one 3 week block. What would you want? 4 weeks? 5?
The US totally SUCKS!!! on this issue. Having worked in other countries, we work in sweatshops in comparison. The minimum should be at least 3 weeks of vacation, at least 10 holidays, and at least 2 weeks of sick leave. I don't have a problem with limiting carryovers to the following year, since some would totally abuse that privilege.
Medical benefits - Perhaps some base level of benefits that's higher than you normally get?
Again, the US is the pits here. We have the most expensive healthcare in the world and we are not even rated #1 for quality of care. Having consulted in most of the big Health Insurance Companies, they are some of the worst run, most inefficient operations I've encountered in my career. Given a free hand to reorganize and streamline their operations, healthcare insurance premiums could be cut by at least 30-50%. I have 25 years experience working in and around the healthcare industry. The only ones who seem to operate efficiently are the VA and DoD (the VA because they never have enough funding to waste a buck, and DoD because sick people can't fight). The only answer I can see that has a chance of changing this situation is some form of national health care. The only proposals so far have any such system operated by the current health insurance companies, but this is precisely the situation inflating costs now.
Telecommuting - Some guarantee to commute xx days a year?
Some companies and employees get it, most don't. Technologically challenged executives make very bad technology decisions. Always have and always will.
Professional Advancement - Certification payment with no penalty? Something else?
See above under education. If a company begins to require a cert for a particular job, they should pay for their incumbents to certify. Should they then have to pay those people more? It depends on whether they need to do so in order to retain them. Bottom line results dictate this.
Overtime - Should we get paid for extra work?
For may jobs, the answer should be yes. Generally, companies expect salaried employees to put in up to 20% overtime on an occasional basis as needed. The key word here is 'occasional'. People who are called on to do that most or all the time with no additional compensation are either incompetent or underpaid.
Holidays - More holidays?
10 holidays is the standard for US Govt employees and most private companies. If you get less, you are getting ripped off. IMHO 10 is sufficient.
Retirement - Pensions?
Major problem for US industry.
(1) Pension funds should be placed in trust with an independent trustee and protected from the companies funding them;
(2) Vesting should be immediate.
(3) Pension funds should be fully funded as a legal obligation on the companies;
(4) Executive incentive compensation should be barred unless (1) and (2) are complete each year; and
(5) Amounts apportioned to any individual should be portable to roll forward into any new employer's pension fund in the case of job changes.
Before everyone jumps on the small business argument, notice I did not say anything about the level of benefit. Small businesses, mine included, can still contribute to a portable trust for their employees, even if the amounts are not very large. If the contributions were tax exempt, small businesses would have more incentive.
The items elaborated on above are not pie in the sky, but achievable and fundable without killing our economy. These policies actually make good business sense and have existed in EU countries for many years.
March 6, 2009 at 8:31 am
Grant Fritchey (3/6/2009)
It's the dumbest thing in the world that I'm expected to bring my happy shining face into the office so that I can spend the entire day with it pointed at a monitor,
Maybe they just like to see your face :w00t::w00t:
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