July 13, 2017 at 8:56 am
killer.turtle13 - Wednesday, July 12, 2017 4:36 PMAs someone working in the UK, it's kind of jarring when you're saying a job offers unlimited time off, and it works out to taking about 3-4 weeks per year (varying by individual of course)!In this country the minimum annual leave a full time employee can be given in their contract is 28 days, which is generally the 8 national holidays and 20 days to take whenever. Where I work we get the 8 national holidays and then 25 days to take whenever, which is fairly average.
Don't worry, once we've left the EU I suspect we'll lose many of our existing rights and move towards more of an American model anyway 😉.
I think I would honestly struggle a little if I could take unlimited paid leave. Surely resentments almost inevitably build up between team mates? The one who's a bit of a martyr about taking time off, and the one who's a bit more free and easy in their approach (some might say lazy)? The company culture and approach would be crucial to the success of the scheme.
July 13, 2017 at 9:07 am
Eric M Russell - Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:02 PMZZartin - Wednesday, July 12, 2017 11:54 AMI doubt it's really as free form as take off whenever you want, unless you're working almost exclusively on solo projects that require little to no interaction with others that sounds like a recipe for being able to blame employees for not being available when needed.Yes, and being able to work remotely anytime and anywhere would make it even more confusing and troublesome. If your coworkers don't see you walk in the door, then they'll assume you're a slacker who has taken yet another PTO day. If you're not generally liked, then it will be very easy for coworkers to make assumptions first and ask questions later.
The rest of my team works in a different time zone than me so they can't tell if I'm in the office or working remote since I have our instant messenger up and I'm on the calls. Not every team is located in the same office and if they're looking for scapegoats you should probably be looking for another job.
July 13, 2017 at 9:14 am
Beatrix Kiddo - Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:56 AMkiller.turtle13 - Wednesday, July 12, 2017 4:36 PMAs someone working in the UK, it's kind of jarring when you're saying a job offers unlimited time off, and it works out to taking about 3-4 weeks per year (varying by individual of course)!In this country the minimum annual leave a full time employee can be given in their contract is 28 days, which is generally the 8 national holidays and 20 days to take whenever. Where I work we get the 8 national holidays and then 25 days to take whenever, which is fairly average.
Don't worry, once we've left the EU I suspect we'll lose many of our existing rights and move towards more of an American model anyway 😉.
I think I would honestly struggle a little if I could take unlimited paid leave. Surely resentments almost inevitably build up between team mates? The one who's a bit of a martyr about taking time off, and the one who's a bit more free and easy in their approach (some might say lazy)? The company culture and approach would be crucial to the success of the scheme.
This "take unlimited vacation at your own discretion" concept is perhaps consistent with American ideals in the sense that each employee becomes more of a self directed entrepreneur. If you're caught up on all your work, then you reward yourself with more vacation days, or if you feel you're falling behind, then you cut back. It would be your own choice, and you live with the consequences. But to make it work there must actually be consequences. The company would have to have a very effective process in place for measuring progress of deliverables and employee performance, otherwise chaos and excessive shrinkage would ensue.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
July 13, 2017 at 9:17 am
There would definitely have to be consequences. Good managers should manage these things as a matter of course, but very few managers are actually good. It's the same with remote working. A good manager knows whether an employee is delivering regardless of where they sit to do the work.
July 13, 2017 at 9:32 am
Where I work now, we use a SCRUM based project management and team model for developers and something more like Kanban for DBAs. I know that a couple of the tenants of SCRUM are co-location of team members and face-to-face meetings, but I still believe this actually lends itself well for remote team members and flexible PTO, because what the scrum board and daily stand-up meetings actually do is enforce the extra transparency, accountability, and collaboration needed to keep everyone focused and on the same page. As a team member you would have to know where you stand in terms of the overall deliverable and your own tasks in order to judge when to take time off.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
July 13, 2017 at 1:35 pm
Pros
Treats employees as adults.
Usually no waiting period before you can use vacation.
Employees don't have to earn more time by staying with one employer. No 2 weeks year 1, 3 weeks year 3, one additional day for each year after kind of thing.
Company doesn't have to track vacation.
Sounds good to potential employees company is trying to recruit.
More flexibility.
Cons
Employees don't accrue vacation so they are not paid for unused vacation if they leave the company.
Company loses the ability to reward employees with extra days off. Manager: you've all been working hard. The company doesn't have any money for a bonus. Take off Friday. Employees: Wait a second. I've got unlimited time off, how is this a reward?
Manager is made responsible for fairness of time off by his/her employees.
Employees may feel pressure or guilt to work more than they would under a defined benefit vacation policy.
Employees are no longer rewarded for their years of service by gaining extra vacation.
It's a misnomer. It's not really unlimited. There is a business to be run after all.
I've worked for 32 years in software development. 5 years of that time was with a startup that had an unlimited PTO policy. Here's my experience working there as a manager of 12 developers and qa:
The company policy was unlimited time off with manager approval. I asked HR for advice on what was usual. The prior policy was 17 days per year. Allow the employees a week off a couple of times a year and a day or two off at a few other times. I checked with my management peers and they said their folks took 3 to 4 weeks.
I tracked my employees time off over 5 years. The average was 14 days a year, with a couple 17 and a couple (myself included) averaging 11. My boss averaged about 5 days (maybe less).
Personally I prefer a defined vacation period benefit. I like knowing what the rules are. That said, I've worked under some lousy plans. I worked for a couple of software startups where the policy was 2 weeks a year until 6 years of service. On the other hand, the best plan was when I worked for a large European mobile phone maker and after 12 years had 25 vacation days and 5 personal days per year. At this point in my life, 3 weeks of vacation per year is my minimum. I am thankful I'm working at a company that allows 4.
July 14, 2017 at 2:10 am
Beatrix Kiddo - Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:56 AMkiller.turtle13 - Wednesday, July 12, 2017 4:36 PMAs someone working in the UK, it's kind of jarring when you're saying a job offers unlimited time off, and it works out to taking about 3-4 weeks per year (varying by individual of course)!In this country the minimum annual leave a full time employee can be given in their contract is 28 days, which is generally the 8 national holidays and 20 days to take whenever. Where I work we get the 8 national holidays and then 25 days to take whenever, which is fairly average.
Don't worry, once we've left the EU I suspect we'll lose many of our existing rights and move towards more of an American model anyway 😉.
I think I would honestly struggle a little if I could take unlimited paid leave. Surely resentments almost inevitably build up between team mates? The one who's a bit of a martyr about taking time off, and the one who's a bit more free and easy in their approach (some might say lazy)? The company culture and approach would be crucial to the success of the scheme.
Yaaaaaay, who needs the EHCR anyway? (Not that leaving the EU means we have to leave that, but Brexit means Brexit!)
I agree about the unlimited vs defined leave. I tend to overthink and second guess myself a lot, I prefer a clearly defined figure.
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