December 15, 2010 at 2:55 pm
TravisDBA (12/15/2010)
Nobody would accept my explanation that the simple truth is (1) I have good problem-solving skills, (2) I know how to use a search engine, and (3) I have a very strong work ethic (thanks, Dad). It's usually not pure talent or omniscience that makes people valuable in IT, it's experience and work ethic.
I totally agree work ethic and other non-technical skills are crucial. I've done very well in my career but I would consider my technical capabilities to be very average conversely my reviews and feedback would indicate I was a better DBA than I am. What is always said is that I'm dependable to complete what I promise and take accountability for my failures. People respect that and think more highly of people who work hard, and accept accountability.
Russ
December 15, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Personality, skills and networking. Sounds like the typical requirements to getting a better job.
Great editorial Steve.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
December 15, 2010 at 5:00 pm
True story, but I still maintain that many interviews are deceiving. Have you ever seen the movie "The Shining"?:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
December 15, 2010 at 5:06 pm
TravisDBA (12/15/2010)
True story, but I still maintain that many interviews are deceiving. Have you ever seen the movie "The Shining"?:-D
Worse in our case is the 'Job built for Bob' scenario of interviewing. Gyad I hate those...
I believe the question is being approached the wrong way. The merit of any individual candidate is not just his skillset. As mentioned, ability to abide the corporate culture, working with other team members, and any other number of items are also important.
I'll give you an example. I worked in a shop where we bantered crudely and rudely back and forth all day. Females were included, even expected to join. The three in the shop were more than happy to do so.
They hired a new person, gender unimportant, who felt the humor and jokes were too much. They always took them personally, and felt insulted. Well, the jokes stop when the hammer came down from above. We all became politically correct and behaved ourselves. That in itself wasn't the problem. That work slowed down ~20% really pissed off the powers that be. Communications stalled a bit, spirits were a bit ho-hum, and instead of looking forward to an amusing day with work involved, we went to work.
The synergy died. Did this person have a strong skillset? Yes. The skills they bring alone cannot be the only factor when deciding if an person is an investment to your company. The person's entirety is the merit, not just their education.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
December 15, 2010 at 5:36 pm
I worked in a shop where we bantered crudely and rudely back and forth all day. Females were included, even expected to join. The three in the shop were more than happy to do so.
They hired a new person, gender unimportant, who felt the humor and jokes were too much. They always took them personally, and felt insulted.
This has nothing to do with a candidates personaility. This has to do with HR harassment policy. There are very strict rules that companies have to enforce nowadays regarding rude, crude, and insulting remarks and behavior on the job. They can be sued over it, so HR or some employees don't tolerate it in the work place, and I don't really blame them. Welcome to the wonderful world of PC.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
December 15, 2010 at 6:31 pm
TravisDBA (12/15/2010)
Welcome to the wonderful world of PC.
That pretty much says it all.
Bye.
Peter Edmunds ex-Geek
December 15, 2010 at 6:37 pm
I agree that there is more to being good at a job than just your raw skills - 'soft skills' are just as important.
What drives me up the wall is when you work for a company that hires people based on them being the cheapest available and being able to answer the most basic standard set of techinical questions on the planet. These people can't code, query, troubleshoot, or communicate their way out of a box and are generally un-teachable! :angry:
So while I agree that it isn't always skills based... there has to be SOME minimum bar requirement. I'll take a fresh green intelligent newb fresh out of college any day; especially if my other choice is a guy who has 15 years experience and still has the skills ability of a junior level. But for me to want to bother with either one of them they have to have a basic level of cognitive skills and show me in an interview that I'm not going to have to babysit them and repeat everything I tell them 15 times.
Ok. I've had my rant. Now back to doing someone else's job for them. 😉
December 15, 2010 at 11:09 pm
TravisDBA (12/15/2010)
I worked in a shop where we bantered crudely and rudely back and forth all day. Females were included, even expected to join. The three in the shop were more than happy to do so.
They hired a new person, gender unimportant, who felt the humor and jokes were too much. They always took them personally, and felt insulted.
This has nothing to do with a candidates personaility. This has to do with HR harassment policy. There are very strict rules that companies have to enforce nowadays regarding rude, crude, and insulting remarks and behavior on the job. They can be sued over it, so HR or some employees don't tolerate it in the work place, and I don't really blame them. Welcome to the wonderful world of PC.:-D
Oh, I know, that's why we behaved ourselves. Doesn't change the fact that team dynamics makes a difference in team results.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
December 16, 2010 at 3:22 am
Richard Warr (12/15/2010)
I'm an SQL contractor.Skills get you the interview.
Personality and attitude get you the job. 🙂
Have to say I agree with this sentiment.. The CV gets you in the door, what happens after that is a mixture of Personalities, Attitudes and Chance [once you've confirmed you have the Skills you claim to have]..
December 16, 2010 at 6:36 am
Great topic, sorry I couldn't join in earlier.
I have most noticed personality problems with entry level employees. There should be a required college class that lets people know that merit is not the only way they will be judged. I'm sure I heard professors say it, and people I knew who were already working, but I was not prepared for it, and now that I am training in young people, there are plenty of them that are equally unprepared.
I'm not saying we should indoctrinate them on how to be nice, but just review what personality types there are, or give some examples of what difficult people will do, what to watch out for.
December 16, 2010 at 7:01 am
WolforthJ (12/16/2010)
..I'm not saying we should indoctrinate them on how to be nice...
Wouldn't be a bad thing 😉
December 16, 2010 at 10:09 am
I have worked with one that was well liked but had little talent. I worked 80 hours a week, but our 'Team' produce great results. I left, they no longer have the results and three more have left after me with the same reason being given. He is still there and we have all moved on and have a better work enviroment and make more money than he ever will. But, with a very bitter taste in our mouths. I want people to be compentent, respectful and do their job, so that I can have a life outside of work. There needs to be a balance.
December 16, 2010 at 10:25 am
SeñorDBA (12/15/2010)
99zardoz (12/15/2010)
Absolutely. The sooner people realize the difference between skills and talent, the better off we'll be. Skills can be developed, all that's needed is the ability to learn and the willingness to work hard. The former is an almost universal trait, but unfortunately the latter is a dwindling virtue.
This is the simple and profound wisdom I have been looking for through all these post. Thank you!:-)
January 26, 2011 at 2:30 pm
Somehow I missed this one when it first came around and so I'm more than a month late to the debate.
There's not much truer then what Steve said in this post about the importance of the "people skills". I used to work for a small IT firm doing support and one time during a hiring run (when they hire several person in batches instead of one at a time so they can train them in batches) I recommend a neighbor the wife and I had gotten to know for many months and despite my strong recommendations the bosses hired someone else who a few months later proved to be a bad hiring decision.
The reason for it being bad was because the guy had zero personality. Even worse was the fact that he not only had zero personality but he could actually be somewhat hateful to many especially if you didn’t know how to deal with him. The guy I recommended got hired the next round of hiring and turned out to be the best employee they had hired since they hired me. He's still there and has shot up thru the ranks proving to be one of the most valued employees. he has incredible people skills, the kind of guy that everybody likes and whom treats no one like a stranger. This is not a common character trait and is ideal for a support type of job where you deal with different people very day and you have to know how to diffuse a potentially explosive situation.
So how did this guy w/Zero people skills (whom very quikly earned a rep in the office for being the jerk) get hired over my neighbor? It came down to the technical skills and experience. The IT guy had lost of TLA’s (that’s three letter acronyms often associated with being certified) on his business card where as my neighbor did not come from a technical background. And so the bosses choose perceived talent over seen talent. They could see in the interview that my recommendation would be great dealing with people but he would need more training, technical training, to do the job of application support (via phone). I tried hard to explain that teaching him technical know-how was easy and that all new hires would have to be taught our proprietary application anyway and so that wasn’t really something that should discourage his being hired. On the other hand you can’t teach people to be personable once they are older adults, at least it’s not easy nor likely you can.
There was just no making my supervisors understand the value of people skills over technical skills and how you can teach computer skills to just about anyone. As I mentioned they ended up hiring my neighbor but they shorted themselves by not hiring him as early as they could have or should have. I never fully got over being frustrated by that. This was the only point of criticism I had with my boos at that job and I guess that’s what made it hit hard when they wouldn’t listen to me.
The bottom line is if you have to choose between teaching someone computer skills that has great personality or teaching a computer nerd whos a 50 year old jerk to get along with others, especially customers, who you gonna hire?
Kindest Regards,
Just say No to Facebook!January 26, 2011 at 2:52 pm
YSLGuru (1/26/2011)
Somehow I missed this one when it first came around and so I'm more than a month late to the debate.There's not much truer then what Steve said in this post about the importance of the "people skills". I used to work for a small IT firm doing support and one time during a hiring run (when they hire several person in batches instead of one at a time so they can train them in batches) I recommend a neighbor the wife and I had gotten to know for many months and despite my strong recommendations the bosses hired someone else who a few months later proved to be a bad hiring decision.
The reason for it being bad was because the guy had zero personality. Even worse was the fact that he not only had zero personality but he could actually be somewhat hateful to many especially if you didn’t know how to deal with him. The guy I recommended got hired the next round of hiring and turned out to be the best employee they had hired since they hired me. He's still there and has shot up thru the ranks proving to be one of the most valued employees. he has incredible people skills, the kind of guy that everybody likes and whom treats no one like a stranger. This is not a common character trait and is ideal for a support type of job where you deal with different people very day and you have to know how to diffuse a potentially explosive situation.
So how did this people skills guru get hired over the other guy (whom others quickly tagged as the jerk)? It came down to the technical skills and experience. The other guy had lost of TLA’s (that’s three letter acronyms often associated with being certified) on his business card where as my neighbor did not come from a technical background. And so the bosses choose perceived talent over seen talent. They could see in the interview that my recommendation would be great dealing with people but he would need more training, technical training, to do the job of application support (via phone). I tried hard to explain that teaching him technical know-how was easy and that all new hires would have to be taught our proprietary application anyway and so that wasn’t really something that should discourage his being hired. On the other hand you can’t teach people to be personable once they are older adults, at least it’s not easy nor likely you can.
There was just no making my supervisors understand the value of people skills over technical skills and how you can teach computer skills to just about anyone. As I mentioned they ended up hiring my neighbor but they shorted themselves by not hiring him as early as they could have or should have. I never fully got over being frustrated by that. This was the only point of criticism I had with my boos at that job and I guess that’s what made it hit hard when they wouldn’t listen to me.
The bottom line is if you have to choose between teaching someone computer skills that has great personality or teaching a computer nerd whos a 50 year old jerk to get along with others, especially customers, who you gonna hire?
Good post. Jerks and prima donnas abound in this business and they are not always older, they come in all sizes and ages.
I have been on the other side of the hill on this too. Personalilty, without skill is just as useless as skill without personaility IMHO. They both can be disasters. It's the combination of the two that is really important to concentrate on in the IT business nowadays, and if you interview with a good approach and probe a little you can usually ferret both out quickly. The bottom line is this: You want a person that CAN deliver regularly, but is not a complete azzhole to everyone in the department. However, you don't want Mr. or Mrs. Personality that can't deliver anything other than the morning paper and a great joke in your business either. It is a business afterall, and being able to deliver in the crunch regularly cannot be under estimated. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 44 (of 44 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply