July 9, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Very intereseting ....
So if you compare one MVP(SQL - and we have some infos how to become MVP) with one Software Engineer (SQL or Oracle Database) Graduate Master or Doctorature in famous Universitys with more than 10 years experience, and he does't write for community or any speech in Microsoft events, he has just the author of many books about Database doesn't metter SQL or Oracle!
Now, who is the best for you the MVP guy or the Engineer!???
In this case if we choose the Engineer, what about the MVP!!!
:hehe:
July 9, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Dugi (7/9/2008)
Now, who is the best for you the MVP guy or the Engineer!???
Best for what?
Writing books?
Teaching a class?
Managing a database?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 9, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Dugi,
I look at it this way. The MVP is a community service award. However, in order to win it you're supposed to be extremely knowledgable in the area for which you have been recognized as an MVP. While I have seen some cynicism in the developer ranks over a handful of their MVPs, in general this is not a problem in the SQL Server ranks. If I see someone is a SQL Server MVP and they're talking about something, I'm going to pull up a chair and listen. Thus far, I've not been disappointed. Since I wear dual hats, I also keep up with Directory Services and I feel this is the case with the Directory Services MVPs. They are smart, knowledgeable people who care about the community around their technology focus. As smart knowledgeable people in a particular technology focus, they are by nature solid engineers in that technology focus as well.
This isn't to say that an MVP is better than an engineer or an engineer is better than an MVP. You can't make generalizations like that. You have to look at each as individuals and how their specialties within SQL Server fit within the role you're looking to fill.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
July 9, 2008 at 1:53 pm
My experience in IT over the past 12 years has been an impression that there is a distinct cultural division in IT. You clearly have a camp or tribe that views Microsoft as an advanced and technologically sophisticated company that has great software solutions. You also have a camp that views Microsoft as a cancer on the IT world that only rips off or steals ideas and then implements them in shoddy software that only sells because they already have a monopoly. Lets call these camps respectively the "Softies" and the "ABMs" (Anything But Microsoft). Both of these camps are vocal and committed and very difficult to convert or convince from the other side. Then there is a group of unknown size (because they aren't very vocal) that only cares if a tool can to the job (the "Pragmatists").
Once someone is designated a Microsoft MVP, the ABM'ers almost instantly tune that person out because they obviously had to sell out to MS to get the honor and therefore can't be trusted. The Softies will view that person as more authoritative and worthy of more attention. I have no idea how the pragmatists would view the designation. I lean toward the ABM camp but like to think that I keep an open mind and will listen to what a Softie has to say. I will even recommend their products for certain situations, especially small shops that don't have staff trained in UNIX or Linux. I definitely give more respect to a SQL Sever MVP than other categories because part of my job is managing SQL Sever dbs and the SQL Server MVPs I have read have all seemed extremely knowledgeable, professional and well grounded in relational theory. Also, I view MSSQL as one of the company's very best products. I always say that I would use SQL Server a lot more if MS put out a version for Linux 🙂 (it's Windows that causes most of the problems). I've gotta have my UNIX shell scripts.
But I find myself wondering if a SQL Sever MVP could safely recommend that a client deploy Oracle, mySQL, Postrese, or DB2 and still be an MVP the next cycle. I have always (fairly or not I do not know) sort of suspected that MVP is an award that MS will only give out to someone who has always and will continue to promote and evangelize MS solutions. And in all fairness, I really would have the same questions about recommendations from an Oracle ACE recipient as well.
But my heartiest congratulations for your SQL Server designation. I know you have earned it through technical excellence, not for Service to Redmond. The MSSQL MVPs are in a different league in my book.
July 9, 2008 at 1:58 pm
CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)
But I find myself wondering if a SQL Sever MVP could safely recommend that a client deploy Oracle, mySQL, Postrese, or DB2 and still be an MVP the next cycle. I have always (fairly or not I do not know) sort of suspected that MVP is an award that MS will only give out to someone who has always and will continue to promote and evangelize MS solutions. And in all fairness, I really would have the same questions about recommendations from an Oracle ACE recipient as well.
I have seen MVPs recommend solutions other than Microsoft and maintain their MVP status.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
July 9, 2008 at 2:06 pm
webrunner (7/9/2008)
Steve,In your editorial you write, "I'm not sure why I was picked."
That's very humble. But as someone who has benefited from the SQL expertise that you and many others bring to this site, I can tell you that there are uncountable reasons why you were picked as an MVP. The service your site provides and the effort you put in to keeping the SQL Server community connected and informed are only two such reasons.
If they had not picked you for MVP status, then I'm not sure who would ever qualify. :w00t:
Congratulations, and thanks.
Best regards,
webrunner
Hear here! I absolutely agree with that!
--Jeff Moden
July 9, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Dugi (7/9/2008)
Very intereseting ....So if you compare one MVP(SQL - and we have some infos how to become MVP) with one Software Engineer (SQL or Oracle Database) Graduate Master or Doctorature in famous Universitys with more than 10 years experience, and he does't write for community or any speech in Microsoft events, he has just the author of many books about Database doesn't metter SQL or Oracle!
Now, who is the best for you the MVP guy or the Engineer!???
In this case if we choose the Engineer, what about the MVP!!!
:hehe:
Heh... Based on some of the software "engineers" I've interviewed in the last 4 years, I'd have to say the MVP... :hehe: but (putting my serious face on) the real key is that you simply cannot tell until you get them into a Technical Interview... period. 😉
--Jeff Moden
July 9, 2008 at 3:22 pm
CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)
... I've gotta have my UNIX shell scripts. ...
I can't comment on shell scripts, but I've written two Perl programs to help me with day-to-day operations, and they save me a bucket of time. Maybe a bucket and a half.
😀
One of these days I'll do an article about Perl & SQL Server....
-----
[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
July 9, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Wayne West (7/9/2008)
CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)
... I've gotta have my UNIX shell scripts. ...I can't comment on shell scripts, but I've written two Perl programs to help me with day-to-day operations, and they save me a bucket of time. Maybe a bucket and a half.
😀
One of these days I'll do an article about Perl & SQL Server....
I would love to see such an article. I presently use bash shell scripts from cron jobs on a windows box set up as a cygwin environment. I took what I knew from Oracle/UNIX and forced it to work on windows. Probably not the most efficient path, but it got the job done.
I guess that's why I wish MS would port MSSQL to different OSes. Some of us have spent a lot of time learning the quirks and powers of UNIX and would love to leverage that skill in our MSSQL DBA work.
July 9, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Ummmm.... I use T-SQL and CmdShell... Once in a while, I may throw a little VBS into the mix... but everything else I do when I do DBA work is T-SQL and CmdShell to old DOS commands. Yeah... I'm into Retro motorcycles, as well. :hehe:
--Jeff Moden
July 9, 2008 at 4:27 pm
I know quite a few MVPs that work regularly with MySQL, Oracle, and DB2. They sell what the client wants, though I'm not sure if they participate in communities for those products. A good question to ask.
I don't think that more specific guidelines will help because it will encourage gaming. I'm not sure this is the best way to do things, but I'm not sure that publishing rules is a better one. After all, this is a recognition by Microsoft of work in the community, not an endorsement of skill. Heck, they picked me P)
The term limits are interesting. I think we should have them in government, so Andy pinned me on why I don't think they're needed here.
Part of it is the med-school philosophy. If everyone has a chance, and you know someone is already working hard posting, writing, speaking, whatever, then doesn't that encourage those who want the award to work harder?
Part of it is that I don't think people that work hard, and gain benefits from their company, consulting, etc., should be punished by removing the award from them.
Part of it is that if you know xx people will not be up for renewal, then is the bar lowered for what gets you an MVP? Maybe that's not a bad thing since it's a community award and not necessarily a technical one. Of course if you're not that technical, I'm not sure how you gain some status in the community.
It doesn't really matter too much to me if I get it again, and if someone else like Michael Coles or Jeff Moden or Gail Shaw can get the award in my place next year, I'd be happy to be swept aside.
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
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July 9, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (7/9/2008)
It doesn't really matter too much to me if I get it again, and if someone else like Michael Coles or Jeff Moden or Gail Shaw can get the award in my place next year, I'd be happy to be swept aside.
That wouldn't make me so happy... I'd step aside for you. Sure, you get paid for running the site... but a lot of other folks in your place wouldn't do it so well or with such zeal and flair... you have "the passion". If you also consider that you and 2 others started this site a long time ago to try to help people, I think you should become the first "Lifetime MVP". 🙂
--Jeff Moden
July 9, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Interesting discussion.
I view SQL Server MVPs as a group of very talented and passionate Microsoft database professionals... plus me.
I've heard people accuse MVPs of bias towards Microsoft in the past. I have to admit it's a compelling argument. Think about it: MVPs receive recognition, free software, the inside scoop on some stuff going on at Microsoft. It all fits.
I also have a compelling argument about the location of US airports: (I'm going somewhere, bear with me): I believe the FAA decided the location of airports in the US by creating a huge 3-D map of the flight plans of jets and airplanes. They took note of where the flight plans intersected and indicated declining altitudes approaching 0 feet until they became tangential with the local altitude. That's where they placed the airports.
Both compelling arguments have a few things in common. They're technically logical. One could argue either in Occam's court. And, on some level, both are insulting to someone's intelligence and / or integrity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For me it's pretty simple. I like diving into technological things. I find I simply do not have the time (or inclination) to dig into everything. So I made a choice. I chose the stuff I was already most comfortable with, and that was Microsoft technology.
I haven't regretted it for a minute.
I don't write (or even say) bad things about other technology. In fact, I say things like "I don't know enough about 'XYZ' brand to comment with integrity about a comparison." Mostly I say these kinds of things about SSIS compared to its competitors.
Sometimes I wish those who don't know enough about SSIS wouldn't comment about it either.
As for the MVP Award, I was floored and honored to receive it. It's humbling. It has impacted my behavior: It's made me work harder and stay up later and dig in deeper while answering the questions of folks struggling with learning SSIS or Database Edition or SQL Server. They're learning just like I am. If I can help them some, I will. That's what keeps me hooked on technology: Helping others learn it and use it better!
:{> Andy
Andy Leonard, Chief Data Engineer, Enterprise Data & Analytics
July 9, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I can think of several folks who I believe should be MVPs, but they aren't for whatever reason. The selection process is not perfect, but it is not MVPs who make the rules or selection. MSFT makes the rules and the selection.
At first, I thought it might be a process like the Baseball Hall of Fame where the sportswriters voted you in. It is NOT as elaborate as that. Therre is no "blackball" from other MVPs. If you want to be a MVP, serve the community passionately; you will eventually be rewarded.
When the MVP program started, it was mainly geared towards thos people who would spend hours answering newsgroup posts. That is still regarded as a "path" into the program by responding quickly and courteously (most of the time) with accurate technical information. More recently, MVPs have been selected for their contributions outside of the newsgroups/forums. Activities such as organizing local user group meetings, posting scripts/projects on codeplex, speaking, volunteering for PASS, writing articles, running a great website, etc. have become part of the equation as well. These other areas outside of the newsgroups aren't as visible to MSFT and therefore may not get rewarded in the same manner. But if you are truly passionate about it, it will come one day.
I am truly honored to be considered an MVP. Some of my favorite resources for information on SQL Server comes from this group of people. They have helped me become a better member of the community. I have been very active in the SQL Server Community since 2001. I am now a 2nd year MVP as I was first awarded in April 1, 2007 (6 years after I became active in the community). I remember not telling anyone for a few days about the award becuase I received the email informing me of the award on April Fool's Day and thought it might be a joke. 😉
SQL MVPs are hard on the SQL Server Dev Team in private. I've witnessed this myself. I have done many presentations where I present with a MSFT field rep. The MSFT field rep has to tow the MSFT line; I do not and can bring value to the customer. I have never heard one MVP or even a MSFT person say to another SQL MVP that "You sholdn't say this or that" in regards to "pumping" MSFT. I have heard it in regards to NDA material though, but that is another matter. SQL MVPs want to make the product better and also want the overall experience to be better by sharing solutions / workarounds.
Kathi stated earlier that now people think that she knows everything about SQL Server. The product is so big now that I don't think that anyone (well - perhaps Richard Waymire) could know everything about SQL Server. I proudly admit that i do not know everything. I do however listen to the question. I help if I can. If I cannot, I point them in the right direction. This is the common thread among MVPs that I have observed - being able to guide a perosn to the right resource if he/she is not able to answer the question.
Andy's Point on Limits - Would you want the influence of folks like Kimberly Tripp, Andy Kelly, Kalen Delaney, Itzik Ben-Gan and countless others (I can't list all of them here) to miss out on the opportunity to make a difference in the product because of limts? As I mentioned earlier, the SQL MVPs are not afraid to let MSFT know that a particular feature or approach is "silly" to put it mildly. Having someone who is very qualified and knowledgable to communicate to MSFT that this is NOT what the customers want is invaluable.
The MVP or the Engineer point.... I agree with Andy Leonard and Gail - it depends...
It is late and my fingers are tired. I am sure that I did not address something here, but that is life.
Rick...
July 9, 2008 at 11:52 pm
CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)
But I find myself wondering if a SQL Sever MVP could safely recommend that a client deploy Oracle, mySQL, Postrese, or DB2 and still be an MVP the next cycle.
The South African MVPS (all of them, not just SQL Server), put on a full day workshop a few weeks back on windows, Linux, PHP, Java and Apache. The workshop was done at the MS offices, with full blessing of MS and the local MVP lead.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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