Where are all the good SQL developers/DBA/DW developers?
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My company had a data warehouse in SQL Server, recently we tried to hire a Data warehouse developers, after six months search all over the country and looking over hundreds of resume, interviewed a lot of candidates. Finally we hired a DW developer. He supposed to have over 6 years of SQL Server experience, being a DBA and worked on DW before.
I found out all he could do was if someone wrote a spec, then he could write the procedure and his SQL Skill was 5 out of 10 (10 the best).
I worked on data warehouse since 1997. For the last 9 years the number of DW developers is not 9 times the number of DW developers in 1997. As a matter of fact, a lot of people claimed they are DW developers, but when I interviewed them, 1 out of 10 did not even know the difference between enterprise data warehouse and data mart.
The same as SQL developers. My VP of IT departments in my old company (a fortunate 500 bank - first top 10) said SQL was so easy, even a cave man could do it. 90% in that company did not know how to do a outer join and subquery. So maybe they should hire a cave man !!! I interviewed a lot of SQL developers had the same problems.
DBA - in my last company, there was one Oracle database, 3 Oracle DBAs and they claimed to be an expert in Oracle. I guess Oracle is so complicated only Larry Ellision could figure it out.
SQL Server DBA - some did not even know what the master database suppose to do and the tempdb suppose to do. I wrote a DTS package using dynamic task property and none of the DBA knew what it was.
Am I the only one so lucky working all these 'talented' people? or where are the good SQL server developers, DBA and DW developers?
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Hopefully most of them have jobs
I agree that often people misrepresent their skills, but I think that often they were successful because they didn't need a wide variety of skills, so they don't know any better.
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I guess a lot depends on people's definitions of what a datawarehouse and a DBA is
.I was hired a few months ago to build a datawarehouse, believing I'd be building cubes and stuff
. After a few weeks I found out all I had to do was to setup a server, create a few databases with tables and views and the necessary DTS stuff to keep the data in shape. But my boss calls it a datawarehouse. Now if he says it looks like a DW and feels like a DW it probably is a...
Next thing: I guess there are degrees of DBA's. There's the guys who know most of the functionalities and how to use it in order to get things done and there's the guys who seem to know what the code for the entire database system looks like. I guess both types of DBA could get things done, but probably not according to eachothers' standards. In my former company, I was the one who understood the data, the data model, how to get to it, how to add or alter indexes etc. By most of the people in the company, I was considered to be the DBA. It was hard for them to understand that a real DBA is a lot smarter. But hey, if you think I'm a DBA, and especially: if you're willing to pay me as a DBA, it's cool with me.
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I think this follows on in some way from the editorial about the lack of women in IT. There is also a lack of men in IT.
We have managed to create a profession that is relatively well paid but often requires anti-social hours. We also are very reluctant to train new entrants to IT, and are very (overly!) particular about the skills mix required for vacancies. How many people in this situation would choose to remain in IT if an interesting job was available elsewhere at the same pay rate but with 100% standard hours? If you are young and looking at a choice of career, would you choose IT and its work time commitment over a similar-paid job with normal hours?
At my shop (in London, UK) , we survive largely by employing talented people who were born and often entered IT overseas, often from India. I do not think this situation is sustainable. If we want to end the skills shortage in IT, we just have to train more, and work better hours.
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When I give food to the poor they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor they call me a communist - Archbishop Hélder Câmara
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I do some teaching as well as consulting so I come across a lot of people who work with SQL Server in some fashion or another, so I have a good basis for answering this question. I strongly believe that the reason most staff that interact with SQL Server don't actually have very good SKILLS with SQL Server is simply because it is too easy!! The Oracle shop you mentioned had 3 DBAs because it is a VERY complex product that takes proper care and feeding to get it to perform hardly at all (much less complex lately, and yes it can REALLY perform when properly managed - just to avoid a flame war here
With SQL Server, you simply install, do some point and click stuff, bolt up a few grids using the visual tools of your choice, and VOILA, you have a fully functioning and probably decently performing application. Then another, then another. They are like Doritos - you can make just one!
Things run great until BAM - they hit what I call the the wall. Too much data, too many database file fragments, too many databases/users on one box. Performance tapers off dramatically. Throw bigger hardware at it, and you get performance back. Since it takes quite some time for this to happen, no one really needs to learn how to do efficient design nor proper ongoing maintenance. Computers are simply so powerful this day and age that good development/DBA skills just aren't required much anymore for your run-of-the-mill applications. And that goes for much more than just SQL Server too. I personally think the ability of the average developer has dropped DRAMATICALLY in the last 20 years for this very reason. I will note, however, that the PRODUCTIVITY of the average developer has screamed upwards with the advent of simpler development languages and more especially as a result of visual programming tools have improved.I will add one last comment. I am VERY THANKFUL that this is the case, as I have built a good career on travelling around and quickly fixing other peoples poorly designed/coded/maintained databases!!
Best,
Kevin G. Boles
SQL Server Consultant
SQL MVP 2007-2012
TheSQLGuru on googles mail service -
My story is that I grew with our IT Dept. I started as a Data Entry clerk, became the tape librarian in the C. Room, then an operator, then Online report Admin. I got into being a DBA because my boss was also over the DBA's. I slowly starting taking over tasks on the MF DB2 and became a DBA. When we got SQL Server I was picked to admin that (1996). We exploded with SQL Server and I am still here as basically the sole SQL Server DBA. I am not a wizard of SQL at all, nor am I great at design modeling. However, I know all of our 20+ installations like the back of my hand and know how everything was put together and works. I guess what I am saying is that I am a person that was in the right place and the right time to get where I am today. I may not be the strongest in some skills but I am very good at planning and knowing all of all installations inside and out.
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How can you evaluate good DW developer?
Ask them to describe the sizing (size of the data and the number of tables existing) of their DW.
Also, a multi sources datawarehouse mean that people must understand more concepts of the one that only interface a single operational database.
Last thing, try to see how he developed his DW.
Did he use ETL tools (Informatica, Decision Strean, Datastage) that do everyting for you.
A good HTML coder is not the one that uses Frontpage, it’s the one that use NOTEPAD.
Same thing with SQL, the better one is the one that really create code and have to think of what he’s doing.
Have fun with candidate evaluation.
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The Hyperion consultant works in my company now to bring Hyperion up, he is an Oracle developer, but we use SQL Server. I saw his procedures that he wrote and they were exactly liked PL/SQL in Oracle. Every one of it used 'CURSOR' even it did not need to. Not only that, every time if something is not working, he blamed SQL Server and Microsoft.
I am not sure his attitude is an isolated case or the attitude of most Oracle developers. They think Oracle is 'THE' database, SQL Server is nothing.
Yesterday one of our developer asked him about the ASCII standard, inner join, outer join instead of using the where clause to join the tables. He said it was total garbage about the 'inner join', 'outer join'. I think the join makes it very clear than using the 'where' clause in the old days when I used Oracle.
These developers are the one who refused to learn new technology. Now that Oracle bought Hyperion. I wonder what would happen to Hyperion.
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Loner, IMHO using an Oracle expert to bring up Hyperion on SQL Server (or do ANY consulting on SQL Server platforms) is a bad idea. I am extremely good at SQL Server stuff because that is ALL I do, and I have spent a LOT of personal and professional time and effort working to become better. I strongly believe it is not possible given database platform complexities these days that anyone can be a true expert on more than one system.
I will also note that just because someone has worked with a system for years does NOT make them good. If they did not have an expert mentor along the way and/or put in their own study to become better, their skills will certainly not be top-notch.
Best,
Kevin G. Boles
SQL Server Consultant
SQL MVP 2007-2012
TheSQLGuru on googles mail service -
I guess I would agree with that statement. We have DB2 MF and AIX, Oracle AND SQL Server. All four of us are I guess you'd say experts in one and are attempting to become good at all the others so we can all back each other up and spread the workload around.
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I'm all for cross-over training! One it can open your eyes to different methods you can use in your own domain and two it saves the company from the classic "Beer Truck" scenario. i.e. where an expert in one domain gets run over by the beer truck and the company has no one else knowledgeable about his/her area of expertise.
Best,
Kevin G. Boles
SQL Server Consultant
SQL MVP 2007-2012
TheSQLGuru on googles mail service -
It depends on the Hyperion version because banks pay for versions that can be used by business Analysts using SQL Server OLTP databases, I have also seen the same with Business Object I worked with someone who developed Business Object reports for years but was clueless about designing OLTP reports. That is the reason Business Object was smart enough to buy Crystal Report because both are not the same and in most cases not related.
Now to Oracle actually Oracle from 9i or 8i I am not sure takes ANSI SQL JOINs same thing with SQL Server developers just write obsolete code, I remember arguing with a guy about SQL Server JOINs before 2005 started rejecting those crude SET based JOINs he assumed I did not know what I was talking about so I told him I choose not to teach users about obsolete features. So the Oracle developer is just both lazy and barely skilled.
In OLTP I know you can be both a developer and DBA on expert level in both Oracle and SQL Server, you just need to spend money on ANSI based books and buy cross platform tools like Embarcadero. I have to agree if you are doing all subsystems it will not be easy to be expert in all vendors, thinking in Algebra will help a lot. lol.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie -
Interesting thread.
in the end, I agree with Steve: all the good devs have jobs already.
if you want to hire one, you have to hire one away from another company.
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elsasoft.org -
For about 23 years of my 30-year career I have worked in jobs that I got because someone who knew my work asked me to come work for them. I don't think I've updated my resume for a decade, and you can't find me on Monster. The jobs I've gotten through headhunters usually turned out to be with companies that were desparate to catch up on fixing bugs, or to finish the conversion from VB 3 to 4 or 4 to 6, but once the problem was cleaned up they didn't really want to pay decent developer salaries in the long run. The people who have called me and said "We need you, can you start Monday?" have treated me very well.
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Hey I am here ... just kidding
There are *many* talented people around but "references" are the KEY. If you can get to them by a personal reference you are likely to find what you look for. If you use Monster or the like you are just playing the numbers game and you have to be prepared to interview *many* people.
-Good Luck.
* Noel
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