January 21, 2011 at 7:11 am
Just to beat this dead horse a bit more:
Ferguson (1/20/2011)
Thanks again. Some comments.First, I should have posted the job description earlier in the thread. Some forums are very picky about such, was trying to be careful. But having some unrelated job description picked up and posted has caused confusion. Thanks for filtering through that.
To the comments on words, inconsistencies in the descriptions -- got it. These things get written by committees, and clearly the result reflects it. There is a legal component to that however, that I need to work through -- the job description becomes a yardstick for H/R if there is ever a dispute. So there's a bias to throw in a broad enough list that you never get that union-like reaction. But I do not see any reason why the full, offical job description has to be in the ad -- they can see that if they are interested once they can have a discussion with a human and place it in context.
In this case, I would recommend wording the job description more clearly. A list of "required", "really want", and "would be nice" would help (a) let job hunters know whether their skillset is a non-starter or possibly good enough, (b) clarify to HR and Legal what would be retain/terminate considerations.
Must be able to administer VLDBs in the terrabyte+ range, both transactional and analytical, with 5-9s expected uptime, in a clustered and replicated environment
Should be able to performance tune transactional VLDBs and suggest performance improvements to database code
Desirable to be able to ...(kitchen sink here)
Non-micromanagement environment
Competitive payscale, TBD on qualification
That kind of list. That makes it very easy to glance at the thing and go "hey, I can do that" or "nope, not for me".
I'm sold on the DB2 link. At worst we will make that a "opportunity" but I have other AS/400 resources who can be trained in that area instead. We do a lot of cross database work, but you are right. I've been that route with Cobol programmers being offered the "opportunity" to learn windows systems -- they think of it as punishment. There is a big divide between cultures that most do not care to cross.
Project management -- noted. Words have strength. Will adjust.
Where I continue to resist however is the whole generalist idea. They must be out there.
There are generalists out there. Most of them come under the "jack of all trades, master of none" heading. The ones that are "jack of all trades, master of some" usually have work at good pay. The very few who are "jack of all trades, master of most" are (a) employed, (b) highly paid, (c) expensive consultants that you hire when your normal DBA gets in over his head.
I'm a database generalist. I've been exposed to most of what SQL Server can do, though not all, and can pick up anything new pretty quickly. I'm also a specialist in a number of the sub-skills. When I was job hunting last summer, I got 6 interviews the first week I put my resume out, and every single one of them turned into an offer, all with high pay. I'm not the top of the field, but I'm still in a position to pick and choose. I wouldn't even have applied to the job description you posted, because of the "that's a whole team of people" factor. But, when you narrowed down the "critical" vs "would be nice" vs "we don't really mean that's required, it's just in there for legal/HR purposes", the description is something I could definitely do.
I have heard two threads in this -- one is "but when will I have time to do both" and "you cannot find someone who is able to do both". The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities. If we legitimately run out of hours, we hire more, but understand this is an incremental position -- it is hard to justify (even to myself) that I need two until the almost infinite increase in resources at least shows up and gets busy.
But the "cannot find someone who is able"... Come on. There must be good people out there, bored and wasting their time and abilities and who really could?
Are you personally an expert on VLDB administration? Did you consult with someone who is? If the answer to both is "no", then how can you judge whether it's a question of time management or not? To me, that shows that expectations are going to be set based on "I saw someone in a movie do it in five minutes one time, how hard can it be?" kind of judgements.
What you could do, to get a set of expert opinions on filling a position, is post the requirements somewhere like this site, and ask. "Is this one job, two, or a whole team?", right on this forum, will get you a really good idea of what you're asking for and why. Just like this thread.
Oh -- groups -- I found two local PASS chapters, going to pursue that. Great idea.
Finally Salary and a related question -- one or more comments seemed to take issue with salary before it was mentioned, then said "but you did not say you would pay enough". Does everyone just presume that a job posting is going to have inadequate pay?
By practice I never advertise salary, not even ranges. Our HR consultants advise the same. I have even some resistance on the first contact to discussing it, asI want to be able to judge each applicant's situation, experience, and the competitive nature of their situation before making an offer. I have adjusted expected offerings as much as about 40% at times upward to get someone who was an unexpectedly strong candidate (and in that case lost it to someone paying 100% more!), and downward substantially (probably never more than 20%) of budget because someone with real potential and apparently good employee came in but was weak and who was previously making way below the range.
To me that's just normal practice -- but it appears to be a presumption here (at least by some) that with zero hints on salary that it was already going to under-pay. Why is that?
As already mentioned by others, the usual experience these days is, either a company is going to pay well, and advertises that in the job posting in order to attract high-talent people, or they plan to pay poorly and don't want to talk about it till you've already wasted a lot of time on the thing. Stating, right up front, "competitive salary", or even "will be overtime-exempt, salary position, with competitive pay and benefits", at least tries to say, "we're looking for good and will pay for what we get".
Don't think of it as "a job posting". Think of it as "we're marketing ourselves as a place to work". It's not "a job posting", it's an advertisement. Just like a resume is a marketing flyer for the person, a job posting is an ad for the company. All the usual rules for advertisements apply. Price (salary range) is part of what will attract people.
To me the data management group is the core of everything we do. Hiring mediocre people there is like buying a Viper car, but asking that they put a Prius engine in it.
That's a great marketing line for the job posting! Seriously, put that in there as a quotation.
In summary: You're competing for a limited market of people, who tend to be highly adept at analyzing information. We tend to look at the job posting as a dataset, and we mine it based on, usually, an online search for data about the company, our own prior experiences with job postings, peer data on both the description and the company. So, market your department and company as competitively as possible.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 21, 2011 at 7:20 am
Ferguson (1/20/2011)
To me that's just normal practice -- but it appears to be a presumption here (at least by some) that with zero hints on salary that it was already going to under-pay. Why is that?
In a word: Experience. It's what we in the IT field experience day in and day out. Companies trying to get the most for the least. Without you saying anything differently, why should we assume differently?
Edit: and after reading the rest of the thread, I see several others have already replied with the same... it figures. 🙁
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
January 21, 2011 at 7:38 am
GSquared (1/21/2011)
Just to beat this dead horse a bit more:I have heard two threads in this -- one is "but when will I have time to do both" and "you cannot find someone who is able to do both". The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities. If we legitimately run out of hours, we hire more, but understand this is an incremental position -- it is hard to justify (even to myself) that I need two until the almost infinite increase in resources at least shows up and gets busy.
But the "cannot find someone who is able"... Come on. There must be good people out there, bored and wasting their time and abilities and who really could?
Are you personally an expert on VLDB administration? Did you consult with someone who is? If the answer to both is "no", then how can you judge whether it's a question of time management or not? To me, that shows that expectations are going to be set based on "I saw someone in a movie do it in five minutes one time, how hard can it be?" kind of judgements.
I think your question is very appropriate, but your conclusion seems to leap to the conclusion that both answers are "no".
Seems like there is a pretty low opinion around here of management. Should I change my avatar to the pointed hair'd boss in Dilbert?
January 21, 2011 at 7:41 am
Ferguson (1/21/2011)
GSquared (1/21/2011)
Just to beat this dead horse a bit more:I have heard two threads in this -- one is "but when will I have time to do both" and "you cannot find someone who is able to do both". The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities. If we legitimately run out of hours, we hire more, but understand this is an incremental position -- it is hard to justify (even to myself) that I need two until the almost infinite increase in resources at least shows up and gets busy.
But the "cannot find someone who is able"... Come on. There must be good people out there, bored and wasting their time and abilities and who really could?
Are you personally an expert on VLDB administration? Did you consult with someone who is? If the answer to both is "no", then how can you judge whether it's a question of time management or not? To me, that shows that expectations are going to be set based on "I saw someone in a movie do it in five minutes one time, how hard can it be?" kind of judgements.
I think your question is very appropriate, but your conclusion seems to leap to the conclusion that both answers are "no".
Seems like there is a pretty low opinion around here of management. Should I change my avatar to the pointed hair'd boss in Dilbert?
Again experience... I only ever had 2 great management teams over 10+ years on the market place...
January 21, 2011 at 7:47 am
Ferguson (1/21/2011)
GSquared (1/21/2011)
Just to beat this dead horse a bit more:I have heard two threads in this -- one is "but when will I have time to do both" and "you cannot find someone who is able to do both". The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities. If we legitimately run out of hours, we hire more, but understand this is an incremental position -- it is hard to justify (even to myself) that I need two until the almost infinite increase in resources at least shows up and gets busy.
But the "cannot find someone who is able"... Come on. There must be good people out there, bored and wasting their time and abilities and who really could?
Are you personally an expert on VLDB administration? Did you consult with someone who is? If the answer to both is "no", then how can you judge whether it's a question of time management or not? To me, that shows that expectations are going to be set based on "I saw someone in a movie do it in five minutes one time, how hard can it be?" kind of judgements.
I think your question is very appropriate, but your conclusion seems to leap to the conclusion that both answers are "no".
Seems like there is a pretty low opinion around here of management. Should I change my avatar to the pointed hair'd boss in Dilbert?
Don't take his comments the wrong way. If the answer to both is yes, then there's nothing more to say about it because that's a good thing. But too many times we've all worked under bosses with little-to-no IT experience who expects miracles on short turn around time.
Earlier in this thread, you mentioned that you wanted someone who wouldn't just parrot "best practices" back to you and who would give you alternatives to them. Since best practices have, on many occasions, been proven to truly be best practices, your comment leads many to believe maybe you haven't done the due diligence for the VLDB management. Yes, it's an assumption. But it is partially based on earlier comments about other subjects.
If you have done your due diligence, then that's fantastic. As Gus pointed out, though, the job description doesn't seem to reflect that.
January 21, 2011 at 8:27 am
Ferguson (1/21/2011)
GSquared (1/21/2011)
Just to beat this dead horse a bit more:I have heard two threads in this -- one is "but when will I have time to do both" and "you cannot find someone who is able to do both". The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities. If we legitimately run out of hours, we hire more, but understand this is an incremental position -- it is hard to justify (even to myself) that I need two until the almost infinite increase in resources at least shows up and gets busy.
But the "cannot find someone who is able"... Come on. There must be good people out there, bored and wasting their time and abilities and who really could?
Are you personally an expert on VLDB administration? Did you consult with someone who is? If the answer to both is "no", then how can you judge whether it's a question of time management or not? To me, that shows that expectations are going to be set based on "I saw someone in a movie do it in five minutes one time, how hard can it be?" kind of judgements.
I think your question is very appropriate, but your conclusion seems to leap to the conclusion that both answers are "no".
Seems like there is a pretty low opinion around here of management. Should I change my avatar to the pointed hair'd boss in Dilbert?
IMHO, I feel that he qualified it adequately so that only if both were no, and then expanded on thought.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
January 21, 2011 at 11:38 am
Brandie Tarvin (1/21/2011)
Hey, Craig, even us non-employer types are learning a lot from this discourse. I've learned a lot about job descriptions just by reading your responses (and Gail's).Thanks.
Thanks for that, Brandie. I was starting to worry that I appeared to be channeling Celko.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 21, 2011 at 11:41 am
Craig Farrell (1/21/2011)
Brandie Tarvin (1/21/2011)
Hey, Craig, even us non-employer types are learning a lot from this discourse. I've learned a lot about job descriptions just by reading your responses (and Gail's).Thanks.
Thanks for that, Brandie. I was starting to worry that I appeared to be channeling Celko.
Nah, you're too bunny face for that :hehe:.
January 21, 2011 at 12:13 pm
Ferguson (1/21/2011)
GSquared (1/21/2011)
Just to beat this dead horse a bit more:I have heard two threads in this -- one is "but when will I have time to do both" and "you cannot find someone who is able to do both". The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities. If we legitimately run out of hours, we hire more, but understand this is an incremental position -- it is hard to justify (even to myself) that I need two until the almost infinite increase in resources at least shows up and gets busy.
But the "cannot find someone who is able"... Come on. There must be good people out there, bored and wasting their time and abilities and who really could?
Are you personally an expert on VLDB administration? Did you consult with someone who is? If the answer to both is "no", then how can you judge whether it's a question of time management or not? To me, that shows that expectations are going to be set based on "I saw someone in a movie do it in five minutes one time, how hard can it be?" kind of judgements.
I think your question is very appropriate, but your conclusion seems to leap to the conclusion that both answers are "no".
Seems like there is a pretty low opinion around here of management. Should I change my avatar to the pointed hair'd boss in Dilbert?
No, what I'm saying is, that's how it comes across. The only data we have is what's been presented in writing, and what we can infer from that based on prior experience (ours and/or our peers). The only data I have is this: "I have heard two threads in this -- one is 'but when will I have time to do both' and 'you cannot find someone who is able to do both'. The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities."
I don't have a low opinion of management. Can't speak for others on that point, but I personally don't. My years as a DBA caught up with my years in management, just last June.
If a job posting lists duties that, under normal circumstances, would require two or more people (see the job description I posted a few pages back for both a laugh and an idea of what I mean by "or more"), the only inference we can make, on reading it, is that the person who takes the job will indeed be asked to do the work of two people (or more).
To make it less "you" and more "in general", try reading this:
Highly experienced person needed for full-time security position. Requires watching CCTVs for a full shift, and patrolling the parking structure for a full shift.
Without further data, it looks like there's no way for that to be one person, unless they work a 16-hour day every day. If the person posting it knows that the CCTVs feed to a mobile "patrol vehicle" and that both jobs can be done by one person quite easily, but doesn't write that down in the description, most people will assume 1+1=2.
Now, I happen to know that several of the things you originally posted would be, all by themselves, full-time duties under normal circumstances. That means multiple full-time jobs for one person. Without further data, I'd skip over that one to ones that look more attractive (it's marketing, after all).
If the posting said, right from the get-go: "Expected to cover full workload as best possible while establishing the department's need. Paying well to a candidate able to cope with high pressure for the time being." That will scare off some people, but those are going to be the ones you really don't want to hire in the first place. It will attract a few others, for whom "ability to cope with pressure" is a point of professional/personal pride, and those are the EXACT people you want!
One of the best job postings I've ever seen (not in IT) goes something like this: "Horrible pay. Long hours. Tough work. But you'll be part of a team that's making a real difference in people's lives." Gets the right applicants every time. And lots of them. People inquire if they can volunteer to help out, even if they aren't looking for work.
A DBA variation might be: "Overloaded servers. Long hours. Tough work. High pay. Only the best needed. Can you take the pressure? If so, apply at ..." You might be surprised at the response to that kind of thing. I responded to one similar to that last summer, they flew me out to their location, put me up in a nice hotel, and made a truly amazing offer. (I turned it down because the manager was a moron, but without that factor, it would have been a very cool job.)
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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January 21, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Silly question.
Does the job description necessarily have to = the classified ad?
Sure, the legal department wants to cover the company by having everything in the job description, but that could be provided to the ideal candidate during the interview process. The classified ad could just have the highlights of what is needed, couldn't it?
Sort of like what Gus was posting.
January 21, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (1/21/2011)
Ferguson (1/21/2011)
GSquared (1/21/2011)
Just to beat this dead horse a bit more:Seems like there is a pretty low opinion around here of management. Should I change my avatar to the pointed hair'd boss in Dilbert?
Again experience... I only ever had 2 great management teams over 10+ years on the market place...
I've only had one one bad manager in 24 years in the workforce. And he definitely didn't belong in management. Maybe as a team-lead for some devs, but definitely not in management.
I've had lots of "good enough" managers. They have their pressures, and sometimes that causes problems. I have my pressures, and sometimes that causes problems. But we sort them out.
I've had more than my fair share of great managers. None of the problems are internally generated in those cases, they're just solutions that haven't been found yet! (200 ways to not make a lightbulb.)
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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January 21, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Brandie Tarvin (1/21/2011)
Silly question.Does the job description necessarily have to = the classified ad?
Sure, the legal department wants to cover the company by having everything in the job description, but that could be provided to the ideal candidate during the interview process. The classified ad could just have the highlights of what is needed, couldn't it?
Sort of like what Gus was posting.
EXACTLY! The job posting should be a marketing piece. Accurate, descriptive, attractive, brief.
The legally enforceable list of duties, including details, would be part of the interview/onboarding process. Just make sure it doesn't end up looking like bait-and-switch. They need to mesh and be truthful.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 21, 2011 at 12:58 pm
This topic is near and dear to me, so it's been percolating in my brainpan a few days now. Ferguson, tell me what you think of the following as a 'rewording' to what you actually desire?
Position Summary:
Senior DBA required as primary optimization DBA for VLDB in both OLTP and OLAP environments. Other duties will be included as primary tasks are fulfilled, including architecture review, development and analysis work, change control modification and implementation, and server level maintenance. Servers have been primarily maintained by non-MSSQL specific experts and will require a flexible mind to work with our current implementation without affecting production negatively. The position requires a high degree of independence and organization to take care of tasks and goals assigned. This position also requires excellent verbal and written communications in English.
Position requirements:
1. Typical DBA requirements:
--1a. Install, configure and administer database software in production and development environments.
--1b. Design, implement and test database backup and recovery procedures.
--1c. Perform final review of deployment scripts from development teams with an eye to impact against the production systems.
--1d. Plan, prepare, and test High Availability Disaster Recovery plan.
--1e. Evaluate and install patches and possibly new software to enhance the database environments, utilizing discussions with existing team members regarding these recommendations.
2. Assume primary responsibility for physical monitoring and performance tuning
3. Prepare capacity planning for future growth, and work with management for cost analysis and solution implementation.
4. Establish and administer database security policies.
5. Develop and implement database change management procedures consistent with overall development and production needs.
6. Document these tasks and policies for consumption by development teams to assist in standardizing the environment.
Secondary tasks
Please find here a list of possible duties to be performed after the environment has been stabilized and the majority of primary duties are completed:
1. Work with the development groups to improve logical tuning as well as transfer knowledge to other analysts and programmers to promote professional growth within the department.
2. Assist existing project teams as needed in the following areas:
--2a. Business Analysis of end user requirements.
--2b. Database architecture design and data modeling.
--2c. Integrating database layer data integrity checks, including constraints, triggers, and auditing.
3. Work with the technical experts within vendor organizations to resolve problems as well as propose new, or changes to existing, database systems.
4. Configure ETL and database linkages between heterogeneous database environments. <Note: I would list the specific technologies you're expecting them to use here, if it's anything other than SSIS, as that's the assumption>.
Additional skills
A list of skills that are valued for this position, but not required:
1. Project Management experience. We are not expecting a full project manager here but someone with experience in keeping tasks and paperwork organized for executive consumption will be useful.
2. Any experience with DB2 and AS400, as a number of our other databases utilize this technology and it will ease interfacing.
3. Team leadership experience, as it is possible this position may grow further.
This position's primary goal is to get our optimization and architecture in our VLDBs back on track while performing standard DBA duties until a significant level of automation is reached, allowing for more free time. Once our primary goals are reached, further evaluation of the secondary task list will be evaluated for either second positions or inclusion to the primary duties for the proper candidate. Salaries will be both competitive and appropriate to experience and knowledge, as well as time management ability and other secondary skills.
EDIT: Restated something that didn't read right after I hit the button.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 21, 2011 at 1:20 pm
Craig: If I were in the job market, that's one I would apply for. If that helps.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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January 21, 2011 at 4:21 pm
The absolute best job description I ever saw was a single sentence as follows:
"Basically what we need is someone who can look at SQL, tell what's wrong, and fix it".
That was the whole ad and the whole job description. I walked in and said "I think I'm your boy. When can I interview with you good folks?" The interview was the next day and the job was a 4 year long pleasure for both myself and the company I worked for. The ONLY reason I left that company was because they moved to a different State.
A good ad to attract good people doesn't have to be complicated or all encompassing. Neither does a job description and I always ask to see the official job description on my first interview. Let good people be good people.
--Jeff Moden
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