February 8, 2011 at 8:49 am
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
I agree that this is a much better posting, albeit one I am not qualified for.I think that you should almost always include "or equivalent experience" when listing a degree requirement. Many of the top SQL People either do not have degrees or do not have degrees in C.S., I.T., or an Engineering discipline. I always find it amusing that someone will consider me because I have a B.S. in Physical Education and 11 years experience, but won't consider someone with 11 years experience and no degree or an A.S. or A.A. I'm not complaining because at least I'm getting something because of my degree, but it doesn't make sense to me. What does my degree prove about my ability to do the job?
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.
Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
As always when it comes to SS... it depends.
You only need 1 candidate. So while yes it may improve the pool like you say, but does it really matter to you or the candidate you need? That is a big definitive MAYBE. :w00t:
February 8, 2011 at 8:59 am
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
I agree that this is a much better posting, albeit one I am not qualified for.
This is definitely a much better posting. And, if I were in the area and looking, one I might even send a resume in for despite not having the full 10 years worth of experience. It would depend on whether I felt I could overcome that few years gap with the experience I actually do have.
So be prepared for a few people who don't have the 10 yrs worth, but think they can meet the other requirements. You'll probably get at least 2-3 of them hoping to get at least to the phone interview stage.
February 8, 2011 at 9:07 am
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
I agree that this is a much better posting, albeit one I am not qualified for.I think that you should almost always include "or equivalent experience" when listing a degree requirement. Many of the top SQL People either do not have degrees or do not have degrees in C.S., I.T., or an Engineering discipline. I always find it amusing that someone will consider me because I have a B.S. in Physical Education and 11 years experience, but won't consider someone with 11 years experience and no degree or an A.S. or A.A. I'm not complaining because at least I'm getting something because of my degree, but it doesn't make sense to me. What does my degree prove about my ability to do the job?
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.
Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
I dropped out of college because (a) it was a poor fit for what I needed out of life, and (b) I was presented with a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take a job that was exciting in all the right ways.
On (a), I self-educate much better than I classroom-educate. I could read by the time I was six, I taught myself classical Latin and Greek when I was thirteen, I could do Calculus problems by the time I was taking mandatory geometry classes in school. I tested out as post-Doctoral on most subjects when I was in the ninth grade. (Except spelling. I've always had trouble with that. Spellcheck is my friend!) My SQL skills, which most will agree are above average, are all self-taught.
On (b), I got to work with people from dozens of different countries, got to travel as part of the job, worked in an office where the average IQ was 145+, doing things that were exciting and fun and very, very demanding, both mentally and physically. And we were doing things that had definite, positive impacts on thousands or millions of people's lives, all over the world.
Given those, admitedly unique, circumstances, would it have shown better judgement, et al, to stay in college? Of course not.
But as I mentioned previously, you can't possibly (a) get that kind of information from every applicant, (b) verify any of this without significant work, (c) count on it as any sort of yardstick.
But college completion doesn't really show anything except the ability to do college. Don't count on it as a measure of anything but that. A college degree shows an ability to get a college degree. Nothing more and nothing less.
Add to that the fact that colleges and universities are having to deal with setting the bar lower and lower in order to deal with parental and student-body pressure, whilst desperately trying to get enough revenue to be profitable, and you have a yardstick that may very well be more of a "half-a-foot-stick".
But experience can be just as poor a measure of skill.
So I don't envy you the decision on that point. It's a no-win situation, deciding whether to require a degree or not. Go with your instincts on it. You won't be more wrong than otherwise, and you'll at least sleep better doing what you feel is right, than if you worry about it too much.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 8, 2011 at 9:12 am
GSquared (2/8/2011)
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
I agree that this is a much better posting, albeit one I am not qualified for.I think that you should almost always include "or equivalent experience" when listing a degree requirement. Many of the top SQL People either do not have degrees or do not have degrees in C.S., I.T., or an Engineering discipline. I always find it amusing that someone will consider me because I have a B.S. in Physical Education and 11 years experience, but won't consider someone with 11 years experience and no degree or an A.S. or A.A. I'm not complaining because at least I'm getting something because of my degree, but it doesn't make sense to me. What does my degree prove about my ability to do the job?
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.
Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
I dropped out of college because (a) it was a poor fit for what I needed out of life, and (b) I was presented with a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take a job that was exciting in all the right ways.
On (a), I self-educate much better than I classroom-educate. I could read by the time I was six, I taught myself classical Latin and Greek when I was thirteen, I could do Calculus problems by the time I was taking mandatory geometry classes in school. I tested out as post-Doctoral on most subjects when I was in the ninth grade. (Except spelling. I've always had trouble with that. Spellcheck is my friend!) My SQL skills, which most will agree are above average, are all self-taught.
On (b), I got to work with people from dozens of different countries, got to travel as part of the job, worked in an office where the average IQ was 145+, doing things that were exciting and fun and very, very demanding, both mentally and physically. And we were doing things that had definite, positive impacts on thousands or millions of people's lives, all over the world.
Given those, admitedly unique, circumstances, would it have shown better judgement, et al, to stay in college? Of course not.
But as I mentioned previously, you can't possibly (a) get that kind of information from every applicant, (b) verify any of this without significant work, (c) count on it as any sort of yardstick.
But college completion doesn't really show anything except the ability to do college. Don't count on it as a measure of anything but that. A college degree shows an ability to get a college degree. Nothing more and nothing less.
Add to that the fact that colleges and universities are having to deal with setting the bar lower and lower in order to deal with parental and student-body pressure, whilst desperately trying to get enough revenue to be profitable, and you have a yardstick that may very well be more of a "half-a-foot-stick".
But experience can be just as poor a measure of skill.
So I don't envy you the decision on that point. It's a no-win situation, deciding whether to require a degree or not. Go with your instincts on it. You won't be more wrong than otherwise, and you'll at least sleep better doing what you feel is right, than if you worry about it too much.
Wow, maybe you should change your avatar to DATA or the borg <queen>.
And I thought I was a geek. :hehe:
February 8, 2011 at 9:20 am
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
I've heard that explanation many times, but I don't necessarily agree, as Gus has shared in his experience. I'm not sure that it shows anything more than a desire to avoid real responsibility for 4-5 years. Most of my friends in college that were traditional college-age (18-22) were in college for that reason or because parents wanted them to be or to have that bullet ticked off specifically to meet requirements by companies. I personally think OJT/apprenticeships are more appropriate, especially in technology, than a college education. I also don't think my degree in P.E. should carry weight for an I.T. job. It does, but I think that makes little logical sense.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
February 8, 2011 at 10:02 am
I think some companies want a college degree just to make sure that you can read and write, since a high school diploma doesn’t seem to ensure that.
February 8, 2011 at 10:02 am
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
I've heard that explanation many times, but I don't necessarily agree, as Gus has shared in his experience.
I applaud your taking issue, as most often it is someone who never went to college who is arguing passionately that going to college does not really matter. :satisfied:
Just remember "all general statements are false".
Including that one probably.
Hiring is just a form of profiling. If we do it, we are politically incorrect. If we do not, we hire randomly = badly.
February 8, 2011 at 10:27 am
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
I've heard that explanation many times, but I don't necessarily agree, as Gus has shared in his experience. I'm not sure that it shows anything more than a desire to avoid real responsibility for 4-5 years. Most of my friends in college that were traditional college-age (18-22) were in college for that reason or because parents wanted them to be or to have that bullet ticked off specifically to meet requirements by companies. I personally think OJT/apprenticeships are more appropriate, especially in technology, than a college education. I also don't think my degree in P.E. should carry weight for an I.T. job. It does, but I think that makes little logical sense.
There is value in a college education and while I'm 'unfinished', I can see Ferguson's side. It does however count me out of the pool. I got into IT as a paid job instead of paying to do so. My work history however shows I really had NO idea what the hell I wanted to do for five or six years. Mind, I did start college for Nuclear Engineering down at GA Tech. I also had minors in acting, a majors swap to CS after the space station went international (at which point I quit ROTC), and a few other minors I never could nail down.
So, Ferguson has a point, and he's right. I don't fit that personality type. At the same time, I've been a stockbroker, janitor, over the road truck driver, auction salesman, office manager, junior land appraiser, makeup artist (for clowns and local stage work), ice cream man, house framer/roofer, demolition, and a few other odd jobs. Then I got into IT as help desk support about 11 (12?) years ago. It went downhill from there. Here I am.
So, Ferguson, it really depends on what you're looking for. If that personality trait from 15 years ago, which in theory has little to do with who I am now, is that important to you, I would agree, continue looking for that person. It does show some root personality fundamentals, and you have to profile somehow.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
February 8, 2011 at 10:36 am
Craig Farrell (2/8/2011)
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
So, Ferguson has a point, and he's right. I don't fit that personality type. At the same time, I've been a stockbroker, janitor, over the road truck driver, auction salesman, office manager, junior land appraiser, makeup artist (for clowns and local stage work), ice cream man, house framer/roofer, demolition, and a few other odd jobs. Then I got into IT as help desk support about 11 (12?) years ago. It went downhill from there. Here I am.
That explains your avatar SO WELL.
February 8, 2011 at 10:48 am
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
I've heard that explanation many times, but I don't necessarily agree, as Gus has shared in his experience.
I applaud your taking issue, as most often it is someone who never went to college who is arguing passionately that going to college does not really matter. :satisfied:
Just remember "all general statements are false".
Including that one probably.
Hiring is just a form of profiling. If we do it, we are politically incorrect. If we do not, we hire randomly = badly.
I don't disagree with "profiling". You need to hire the person that you believe will best fit into your culture. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking for a degree, but I just wonder how a degree in unrelated field makes me more qualified than someone who has similar or even better experience.
I'm probably more likely to hire someone who shows up dressed conservatively and neatly than someone who doesn't have that neat appearance. To use a couple of people fairly well-known in the SQL Community, without knowing them well, I'd be much more likely to hire Tom LaRock than Denny Cherry if they both meet the requirements just based on appearance. Both are very skilled and worth hiring, but Tom has that "professional" look that I like while Denny is more "casual". I'm profiling on appearance. Now I'd hire either in reality because I DO know them both.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
February 8, 2011 at 10:52 am
Michael Valentine Jones (2/8/2011)
I think some companies want a college degree just to make sure that you can read and write, since a high school diploma doesn’t seem to ensure that.
Unfortunately true.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 8, 2011 at 10:59 am
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
Jack Corbett (2/8/2011)
Ferguson (2/8/2011)
I am not saying I would not consider you, but I will try to answer your perhaps rhetorical question.Someone who as a young adult decides to put in the effort and finish a college degree demonstrates an ability to make good decisions and finish something they start. It is in many ways easier to get (bored, stressed, poor) and move into the working world than to finish what you start. Or maybe even did not start.
Will it be a false positive or false negative indication -- absolutely.
But does it enrichen the candidate pool?
I've heard that explanation many times, but I don't necessarily agree, as Gus has shared in his experience.
I applaud your taking issue, as most often it is someone who never went to college who is arguing passionately that going to college does not really matter. :satisfied:
Just remember "all general statements are false".
Including that one probably.
Hiring is just a form of profiling. If we do it, we are politically incorrect. If we do not, we hire randomly = badly.
And, by the same token, it's mostly college grads arguing that it really matters. If it didn't, they just wasted a small fortune and the best years of their lives. Vested interest both directions.
Of course hiring is profiling. The only other way to do it is hire a plethora of people, have them all try to work the job needed, and the one who succeeds the best is the one you keep.
A modified version of that, called "hiring in excess" or "hiring in parallel", involves hiring two or three people who seem to qualify for a job, all on short-term contracts. You then make the final offer of permanent employment to the one who does the best over the term of the contract. It works better than sequential hiring in most cases, but does have some extra expense to it. Less expensive than having to hire three people in a row because the first two end up sucking despite doing well in the application and interview process. If the runner(s) up did well but not best, you provide positive references for them, and they get a few months pay and experience, so it's not a loss for them. But that's still going to involve profiling, it's just a modified version of the usual process.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 8, 2011 at 11:06 am
Ninja's_RGR'us (2/8/2011)
That explains your avatar SO WELL.
:laugh: The fact that it's usually silly or the fact that it doesn't ever seem to be the same one 3 weeks in a row? 😉
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
February 8, 2011 at 11:07 am
Michael Valentine Jones (2/8/2011)
I think some companies want a college degree just to make sure that you can read and write, since a high school diploma doesn’t seem to ensure that.
I know two college instructors who despair that even a college education can't teach this generation of texters and Wikipedia copiers how to read and write proper American English.
The stories I've heard...
February 8, 2011 at 11:11 am
Craig Farrell (2/8/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (2/8/2011)
That explains your avatar SO WELL.:laugh: The fact that it's usually silly or the fact that it doesn't ever seem to be the same one 3 weeks in a row? 😉
Yes... going down hill !! :w00t:
Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 114 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply