October 6, 2010 at 12:02 pm
david_wendelken (10/6/2010)
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
...being a parent is still considered secondary to being a provider, no matter what we may say.Being a provider should come before being a parent.
People need to be able to provide for their kids before they have them.
I disagree. I won't get into the social/political/faith/etc discussions on this forum here but I disagree. What happens if parents lose their jobs and deplete their emergencty fund? Do they abrogate parenting responsibility to the state temporarily? While it is ideal to ensure you are ready for your family and to do things in an order that would indicate you are, I am of the belief that I'll be able to provide for my kids somehow, someway. If I have to work 10 part time jobs as a laborer someplace, I will make sure they have what they need. If I have to choose between a critical parenting/family obligation or a job, the job loses every time.
__________________________________________________
Mike Walsh
SQL Server DBA
Blog - www.straightpathsql.com/blog |Twitter
October 6, 2010 at 1:03 pm
mike_walsh (10/6/2010)
david_wendelken (10/6/2010)
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
...being a parent is still considered secondary to being a provider, no matter what we may say.Being a provider should come before being a parent.
People need to be able to provide for their kids before they have them.
I disagree.
We in American (and many other countries) are largely (not entirely, I know!) beyond the point where we're unable to provide the necessities for our families. So now we're arguing about the level of focus on career/family in an extremely priviledged set of people**. Yes, it's vital that each parent provide food, shelter, education and health care to their children. But we in the middle class and up have done that, and we often still sneer at people who focus less on career as failures, or lazy, or something with an equally negative stigma.
We as a culture recognize that it's important to spend time with one's children, be part of their education, raise them ourselves as much as possible...but we're still holding on to the conflicting, underlying assumption that work comes first, always.
**By priviledged, I'm comparing us to our counterparts even 100 years ago (or our current day counterparts in impoverished countries), who did not have the kinds of choices, opportunities, and luxuries that we mostly take for granted.
October 6, 2010 at 1:06 pm
mike_walsh (10/6/2010)
My wife stays home with our kids (5, 2 and 4 months). She home schools our oldest daughter and her day is grueling. She chose to do this. We can afford day care. My wife is incredibly intelligent and could do just about anything she set out to do. She has hobbies, skills and interests that qualify her for a wide variety of jobs. That being said, she felt like she should be home with our kids, instilling our values in them (Yes, allowing them to express creativity and someday choose their own path but shaped by us). We've had chats about it, I was the one resisting (in a way) at first wanting her to be able to do what she wanted. This is what she wanted.<snip>
I love that I live in a country where that choice does and that a woman can choose to stay home or choose to work.
I also know that my wife works so, so much harder than I could ever dream of doing. By the time I get home from work (sitting in my office, talking to adults, worrying about where to go for lunch some days, and "playing" with a technology I love to work with) she's had a very very long and trying day.
Mike, you and I know each other, so I have had the pleasure to talk with you and hear about your family choices.
From my point of view, what the WIT movement is attempting to do here is to make sure that young girls, like your daughter, who have grown up having mom at home and dad at work (in a tech career no less!) are exposed to the opportunity that they too can make choices to follow in dad's footsteps.
I applaud your family dedication to raising your children and taking the driver's seat. In a case such as this, is leading by example a precursor to instilling 'male' and 'female' roles in our children? Will your sons have more of an affinity to women being placed in the stay-at-home cateory? Will your daughter? Probably. Again, I know you Mike, so I know you're going to give all of your kids every opportunity they want to pursue full credit. I would be willing to bet that if you and your wife's situations were reversed, it wouldn't make a difference in the values your kids will grow up with....or would it?
Please, don't read any judgement into my comments, I very much applaud you for the things you stand for - just food for thought.
October 6, 2010 at 2:34 pm
My daughter is 19, and she has seen me work at a computer since she was a baby. (I had the good fortune to work at a company that let me work part-time from home while she was a baby.) I was there to take both my children to after school activities like swimming and piano, etc, and try to have some work/personal balancve. I have certainly encouraged her to sign up for computer classes at school, along with science and math. And she has NEVER had an interest in computer technology.
She is interested in marine biology with a passion to study sharks. I support her decision, and can reference my own previous career in science as a geologist (in a definitely-biased time period in the late 70s & early 80s, when oil companies didn't want to hire female geologists because they would just get married and pregnant - I even had a job interview where they asked me if I had a boyfriend and what he thought of my career choice!) (don't get me started!)
One thing that I see, mentioned by someone earlier, is that I don't think there is enough communication about job possibilities, across the board, for high schoolers. One's view of potential careers is based so much on the people you know. There are so many cool jobs out there that you don't even know exist until you meet someone doing it. Maybe high school is even too late, because by that time, "Career Day" is just too un-cool. But "Take your daughter to work day" is insufficient, because she already has seen what her parents do. There has to be some kind of cross-training exposure to things outside the child's network.
October 6, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Carla Wilson-484785 (10/6/2010)
...One thing that I see, mentioned by someone earlier, is that I don't think there is enough communication about job possibilities, across the board, for high schoolers. ...
Excellent point. I think we're not quite doing enough to enlighten people, give them information and choices, and get them to open their minds to possibilities.
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October 6, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Hah! Right there with you. My 11yo girl is a proficient user, but much prefers art over computers. (The thing is, both my daughter and yours will use computers anyway, even in marine biology and art...)
October 6, 2010 at 2:59 pm
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
Hah! Right there with you. My 11yo girl is a proficient user, but much prefers art over computers. (The thing is, both my daughter and yours will use computers anyway, even in marine biology and art...)
Right! When she was in 7th grade, I suggested she take the Computer class as an elective, and she rolled her eyes and said, "Mom! I already know how to make PowerPoint presentations!"
October 6, 2010 at 3:33 pm
Carla Wilson-484785 (10/6/2010)
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
Hah! Right there with you. My 11yo girl is a proficient user, but much prefers art over computers. (The thing is, both my daughter and yours will use computers anyway, even in marine biology and art...)Right! When she was in 7th grade, I suggested she take the Computer class as an elective, and she rolled her eyes and said, "Mom! I already know how to make PowerPoint presentations!"
At SQL Saturday in Kansas City, one of the attendees brought his 12 year old daughter. She was very gracious to add to our Women In Tech discussion. We learned that these kids are simply taking the technology they have grown up with, and use every single day, simply for granted. They don't think in terms of other people out there actually making these devices and services available to them. Probably the same way none of us really thought about refridgerators. They are in our house, they work...yeah, someone probably made them, but why do I care? Mine works and if it breaks I can just replace it.
Great insight into how pre-teens see technology!
October 6, 2010 at 4:21 pm
wendyp (10/6/2010)
At SQL Saturday in Kansas City, one of the attendees brought his 12 year old daughter. She was very gracious to add to our Women In Tech discussion. We learned that these kids are simply taking the technology they have grown up with, and use every single day, simply for granted. They don't think in terms of other people out there actually making these devices and services available to them. Probably the same way none of us really thought about refridgerators. They are in our house, they work...yeah, someone probably made them, but why do I care? Mine works and if it breaks I can just replace it.Great insight into how pre-teens see technology!
Interesting! So if you like building things or figuring out how they work, you might be more interested in a career in technology than someone who does NOT.
While I really don't see that this as a gender thing, I do think that girls don't get opportunities to take things apart as much. (When I was a Girl Scout leader, I let the girls take apart an old XT-clone computer and a radio. They really got into that. And the day we used power tools to make a Father's day present with wood and screws, they were very proud of the belt racks they made. I even got feedback from one mother about how proud her daughter was.)
Maybe this is part of that cross-training - maybe girls should be encouraged to take shop and automotive repair classes.
October 6, 2010 at 5:05 pm
My 16 year old daughter is trying to work out what she should do. She has some good graphics skills and good at math, so I suggested studying computer science and look at Web design work. Her response, "you just want me to do this to justify your decision to go into IT".
October 6, 2010 at 5:07 pm
grahamc (10/6/2010)
I know that the UK has a "general rule" that if you want a big increase, find another job.
I'm not at all sure that's true. In fact my personal experience strongly suggests it isn't, both in my own pay and in the pay levels I've set for others. What you have to do is do your job very well. Of course if you are working somewhere which is burning money too fast to hand out pay rises you won't get an increase without changing jobs but there aren't many jobs like that (and anyway jobs like that are sometimes enormous fun, much more fun than a nice steady job in a stable environment).
I think in the IT industry in the UK there is little or no difference between pay for men and pay for women. The reason not enough woment go into computing/IT is that old-fashioned stereotypes discourage them: social pressure not to study geeky subjects like CS or Engineering or Physics, and/or attitudes inculcated by their parents. The reason I say "not enough" is that we have a real skills problem, and women make up half the population - or more relevantly, if we look at the number of people who are sufficiently intelligent and hard working to fill the mopre demanding roles in our field half of them are women and our industry/profession isn't getting its fair share of that half.
Tom
October 6, 2010 at 8:29 pm
wendyp (10/6/2010)
Mike, you and I know each other, so I have had the pleasure to talk with you and hear about your family choices.
From my point of view, what the WIT movement is attempting to do here is to make sure that young girls, like your daughter, who have grown up having mom at home and dad at work (in a tech career no less!) are exposed to the opportunity that they too can make choices to follow in dad's footsteps.
I applaud your family dedication to raising your children and taking the driver's seat. In a case such as this, is leading by example a precursor to instilling 'male' and 'female' roles in our children? Will your sons have more of an affinity to women being placed in the stay-at-home cateory? Will your daughter? Probably. Again, I know you Mike, so I know you're going to give all of your kids every opportunity they want to pursue full credit. I would be willing to bet that if you and your wife's situations were reversed, it wouldn't make a difference in the values your kids will grow up with....or would it?
Please, don't read any judgement into my comments, I very much applaud you for the things you stand for - just food for thought.
I will respond more in person at the Summit, Wendy. Maybe over Sushi with the gang (well whatever is left of the gang this year, Colin won't be there). 😉
You were exactly who I had in mind when I said that I have had a different reaction when talking to folks who are active with WIT. Your reaction was great when talking about what my wife did. No judgment read in your comments at all.
We'll talk more in person and perhaps I'll have the chance to hit the WIT luncheon this year. In a nutshell - I love what WIT does in bringing opportunities to girls and young women who maybe never thought of them for whatever reason. I'm really excited to get my kids (boys and girl) into any part of my life. My daughter likes fishing with me, she can't wait to go hunting with me (I just started this year, her mom can wait, so we'll wait until she's 8 or so and can sit patiently in a turkey blind or tree stand with dad 🙂 ). She'll get to see what I do. I hope to bring her to the user group I run for meetings when she is a bit older and it won't be so boring. So I am in complete agreement with the mission. I just have a different view on "is it okay to model traditional gender roles?" and I believe it is definitely okay and perhaps lacking too much in society. I believe those two view points I shared can be balanced and live together also, that I'll have to explain in person 🙂
I like what WIT does and I think we in technology careers should look at doing similar outreach to other groups that are under-represented. NOT because they are under represented, I am a big proponent of hiring based on experience, skill and attitude alone and paying for performance. Focus on those other groups that are under represented because they also have felt like "they can't" for whatever reason. Maybe it is a big sister kind of program for orphans, foster kids, fatherless, motherless, etc who don't have that role model letting them know they can do what they set their mind to. Maybe it is the inner city kid living in an impoverished area in a family that has had a couple generations of bad news, someone who thinks they are a product of the system and have no choice but to continue in that trend. It's the same thing as this aspect of WIT, I think? Letting those who have been told (either verbally or through behavior/lack of encouragement/etc), "Nah.. you can't, don't even bother" that they actually can if they apply themselves.
__________________________________________________
Mike Walsh
SQL Server DBA
Blog - www.straightpathsql.com/blog |Twitter
October 6, 2010 at 11:25 pm
I emailed Jen with a response today, and my opinion on why there is a pay gap is the following:
Men are more likely to define themselves through their career and their earning power, so men are often driven to take jobs that pay more, but offer job dissatisfaction. Are the pressures that a manager faces really worth the $10K more than the senior developer/systems analyst that reports to them? I do think the need to earn over the need for job satisfaction drives men to earn more, many times at the expense of their health and well-being. It is also a reason women tend to live longer.
And I do wish we had younger woemn going into IT. My 16 year old, who I think could be a doctor, lawyer, etc. is looking at journalism. I ty to tell her she could be an IT person and a journalist if she studies IT - look at tgis site - but she can't be both if she studies journalism. She sees IT as something not cool and uncreative. And I agree that career day is uncool. I wish she would go into IT or a health-related profession. I am trying to get her to see that she should get a rare skill that leads to employment, and pursue her "loves" on the side, and that she can tailor her job toward her loves (I am a BI guy who loves numbers which is a natural progression of my love for sports statistics when I was younger).
October 7, 2010 at 8:32 am
I talked to my wife about the thread and what I was saying. She added a comment, Wendy, about kids learning what they experience and she brought up a great point that slipped my mind... One of the major reasons she chose to stay home with the kids and home school (at least give it a shot in the beginning and see how it goes for the schooling part) is because her mom didn't. Her mom worked hard as did her dad. She said she didn't want her kids to experience waiting at the library after school for pickups, being gone from the parents all day long and only seeing one or both parents for a few hours each night before bed (max) and on the weekends. She didn't want her kids to experience that.
She agreed with me in all I said about wanting to share with our kids the fact that they are capable of doing more or different things than we did. She would be fine if our daughter chose a career outside the home as an adult. She actually said it best this morning when we were talking and she said "That's the major reason why we're home schooling ,right? I know my kids, I know Rachael (our daughter) and I want to get to know her more and help her learn that she can do what she applies herself to and hel allow her to learn to see what God wants for her in life and where He wants her to be."
__________________________________________________
Mike Walsh
SQL Server DBA
Blog - www.straightpathsql.com/blog |Twitter
October 7, 2010 at 8:36 am
mike_walsh (10/6/2010)
While I applaud the Women In Technology group and I have great working relationships with a lot of women who work in technology, I sometimes wonder if we actually need more "Women Who Stay Home" groups 🙂 In the working world when out at work events with families or hanging out with coworkers who are women, I see the reaction my wife gets when talking to folks about what she chooses to do. It tends to be one of two reactions:A.) "You do?! Oh I'm so jealous! I wish I could do that!" (or some derivative thereof) (and the answer there tends to be simple.. we just make it work. We don't drive fancy cars, we have a tight budget and I do some consulting here and there, we make do and live within our means)
or
B.) Strange reaction. Not turning their nose up but more like a "Oh. You do?!" in a frumpish/frowny type of response.
I think you've identified the root of the problem. I hear a lot about women's choices in working or staying at home to raise the kids. Women are encouraged to make the choice that's best for them and often men are encouraged to support the decision rather than share the decision. The problems that women have in the workforce, including IT, will never go away until the parents are sharing that decision and there is just as much chance of the man staying home as the woman. In our household, had money not been a factor, I would have been the one to stay home with our son. Yes, I was earning nearly twice as much as she was, but the jobs were also radically different (8-5 receptionist vs. a high-risk job with scads of overtime and on-call work). As things worked out, I did get a year when he was 3, but it took me a long time to overcome the feeling that I was getting the short end of the stick even though we shared the decision equally.
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