May 2, 2012 at 10:11 am
Anything that has power over you ought to be distrusted to a certain degree. James Madison. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 2, 2012 at 10:41 am
GSquared (5/2/2012)
MdApache (5/2/2012)
I used to be a strong believer in regular funding of my retirement account, but now I'm less likely to do so. The finances for the USA are in horrific shape, and it is not beyond the pale to believe that an individual's "personal" retirement funds will be confiscated by the government at some point in the future. There have actually been discussions in congress about this already. The feeling is that we were "allowed" to accumulate these funds tax free and so some percentage of them can be considered as government property. Most people should plan on working as long as they can as I believe retirement will very soon be a thing of the past. If you look at the history of the world, mass retirement is a fairly recent phenomenon (1950s) and one that is probably unattainable for the majority of people born in 1960 or later.I fund mine on the basis that, if it works out, wonderful. If the government has to steal from it and wipes it out, then we're looking at a collapse so thorough that money probably will be the least of my concerns at that point anyway.
It'll go one of two ways, the way I see it. Either we'll muddle through despite the government and my 401(k) will be a good thing, or civilization will collapse, we'll have riots and looting and probably revert to city-states (the most common form of goverment in human history) and the lost money won't matter in the slightest. So I either gain by funding it, or I don't lose anything that matters in the long run by funding it, so I fund it on a "why not" basis.
Trusting the goverment is just a form of Helsinki Syndrome, in my opinion.
I'm not saying that I don't save and invest. There are other hard assets that will be useful even during a breakdown in society. If society does break down and you "lose it all," wouldn't it be preferable to have a stash of hard assets instead?
May 2, 2012 at 10:52 am
stephanie.sullivan (5/2/2012)
So I either gain by funding it, or I don't lose anything that matters in the long run by funding it, so I fund it on a "why not" basis.
I concur that the gamblers argument (very similar to Pascals argument for believing in God) is quite sound in this respect 😀
Not familiar with that version of the gambler's argument. I'm famiar with the Gambler's Fallacy (out of Logic), but not something related to this.
Pascal's argument for belief in God is one of the more fun paradoxes. Belief that inherits non-belief as it's core argument.
My point is simply that the hypothetical events that would make me lose my investment in my 401(k) would also render it a moot point. If, for example, the US government collapses, and we end up with total collapse of western civilization, then it won't matter if I still have my 401(k) or not, since any money in it would be worthless even if I do have access to it.
Keep in mind, US dollars are only valuable because the US government says they are, and has the guns to back up that opinion rather forcefully. If the government can't back up that postulated value, then it's just a sort of baseball card kind of item.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
May 2, 2012 at 11:04 am
MdApache (5/2/2012)
GSquared (5/2/2012)
MdApache (5/2/2012)
I used to be a strong believer in regular funding of my retirement account, but now I'm less likely to do so. The finances for the USA are in horrific shape, and it is not beyond the pale to believe that an individual's "personal" retirement funds will be confiscated by the government at some point in the future. There have actually been discussions in congress about this already. The feeling is that we were "allowed" to accumulate these funds tax free and so some percentage of them can be considered as government property. Most people should plan on working as long as they can as I believe retirement will very soon be a thing of the past. If you look at the history of the world, mass retirement is a fairly recent phenomenon (1950s) and one that is probably unattainable for the majority of people born in 1960 or later.I fund mine on the basis that, if it works out, wonderful. If the government has to steal from it and wipes it out, then we're looking at a collapse so thorough that money probably will be the least of my concerns at that point anyway.
It'll go one of two ways, the way I see it. Either we'll muddle through despite the government and my 401(k) will be a good thing, or civilization will collapse, we'll have riots and looting and probably revert to city-states (the most common form of goverment in human history) and the lost money won't matter in the slightest. So I either gain by funding it, or I don't lose anything that matters in the long run by funding it, so I fund it on a "why not" basis.
Trusting the goverment is just a form of Helsinki Syndrome, in my opinion.
I'm not saying that I don't save and invest. There are other hard assets that will be useful even during a breakdown in society. If society does break down and you "lose it all," wouldn't it be preferable to have a stash of hard assets instead?
Actually, a certain amount of hard assets is good. More important is a plan, and the skills and knowledge necessary to begin to effect a recovery, at least at a local level.
Either one is hard to fully plan for. For example, gold is no good if what people really need is drinkable water. A supply of drinkable water is okay, and even a good idea, but hte tools to turn saltwater or rainwater into drinkable water, and the knowledge of how to do so, is probably even better. The theory necessary to design and build such tools might be even better yet.
Another good example is pepper. Before the advent of modern refrigeration, pepper was valued comparably to gold (for centuries, the price of pepper in Europe was 1 pound of gold = 1 pound of pepper), because it could cover up the taste of rotting meat. Cooking would render the meat safe to eat, but pepper would make it un-revolting to eat. Not many people know that. Not many would plan for collapse of civilization by stockpiling seasonings.
But how do you plan for riots? There's a very limited amount you might be able to do in serious rioting, and it will probably depend on the exact circumstances you find yourself in. Even a full-on "suvive the nuclear hollocaust" style bunker won't help you at all if you're out shopping when the riots start, and you thus can't get to into it.
Those of us who are DBAs generally have DR plans for our databases and servers. Most of the people who have "DR" plans for any sort of civil collapse have the equivalent of some untested backups on the same hard drive as the data and log files.
But all of this is WAY off topic here. Not that these editorial threads usually stay on-topic for any length of time, but this is a long ways from work-life ballance.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
May 2, 2012 at 11:04 am
Focusing on Steve's work/life balance comment that there is always going to be more work to do (and ignoring end of the world scenarios and the whole Atlas Shrugged debate on Government, Taxes, & Liberty) I would say the Lion King says it best:
"From the day we arrive on the planet
And blinking, step into the sun
There's more to see than can ever be seen
More to do than can ever be done"
Leonard
Madison, WI
May 2, 2012 at 11:11 am
And kudos to Steve for using his widely read tech newsletter to advocate the importance of retirement savings, even (and especially) for younger workers.
Leonard
Madison, WI
May 2, 2012 at 11:32 am
sturner (5/2/2012)
I'll be working pretty much until I die. :w00t: Forget social [in]security, the government has already spent every penny you paid in and when that ran out they borrowed and printed 1000 times more than that.
+1
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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May 2, 2012 at 3:54 pm
phonetictalk (5/2/2012)
And kudos to Steve for using his widely read tech newsletter to advocate the importance of retirement savings, even (and especially) for younger workers.
Thank you.
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May 2, 2012 at 6:31 pm
" it is not beyond the pale to believe that an individual's "personal" retirement funds will be confiscated by the government at some point in the future."
Jeez, I'm listening to a lot of Fox news and Glen Beck devotees. What nonsense, no one in Congress said any such thing. They'ed be out on their butt so fast we would all spin. Any serious threat like that would crash the stock market.
What you really need to fear is the banks & wall street screwing everything up again and watching your nest egg drop by half. They did it many times and will do it again since government won't put the screws on them.
May 2, 2012 at 7:13 pm
Jeez, I'm listening to a lot of Fox news and Glen Beck devotees. What nonsense, no one in Congress said any such thing. They'ed be out on their butt so fast we would all spin. Any serious threat like that would crash the stock market.
Such things have happened in other countries and I'm just saying that you shouldn't discount it.
http://cashmoneylife.com/can-the-us-government-seize-your-401k-or-ira/.
History has shown that governments in desperate financial straits will do anything to try to save themselves. And for the record I don't watch or care for Fox New or Mr. Beck. Big government and big corporations have a lot more in common than you might think...
May 2, 2012 at 10:53 pm
MdApache (5/2/2012)[hr. . . Big government and big corporations have a lot more in common than you might think...
That is fascism, as defined by one Mr Mussolini, who could be trusted to know a thing or two on this subject, having invented that system of government.
May 3, 2012 at 7:25 am
CrankyRat (5/2/2012)
Jeez, I'm listening to a lot of Fox news and Glen Beck devotees. What nonsense, no one in Congress said any such thing. They'ed be out on their butt so fast we would all spin. Any serious threat like that would crash the stock market.What you really need to fear is the banks & wall street screwing everything up again and watching your nest egg drop by half. They did it many times and will do it again since government won't put the screws on them.
Sir, with all due respect, you are misguided. When government debases the value the currency they are stealing the value of a days work form every person who works to earn that money.
If a days wage is worth less than it was when you signed up for the job that is theft plain and simple. When they print money at the rate they have been, your spending power declines. It is really a tax increase in disguise. Wall street can not print money or raise your taxes... only government can do that.
The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival.
May 3, 2012 at 8:15 am
CrankyRat (5/2/2012)
" it is not beyond the pale to believe that an individual's "personal" retirement funds will be confiscated by the government at some point in the future."Jeez, I'm listening to a lot of Fox news and Glen Beck devotees. What nonsense, no one in Congress said any such thing. They'ed be out on their butt so fast we would all spin. Any serious threat like that would crash the stock market.
What you really need to fear is the banks & wall street screwing everything up again and watching your nest egg drop by half. They did it many times and will do it again since government won't put the screws on them.
Either is capable of FUBARing your account.
I don't pay attention to Glen Beck. Seems like just another political propaganda hack to me.
House Democrats held hearings on the subject of confiscating 401(k) accounts and converting to something they called GRAs operated by the Social Security Admin. That was in 2008. Stating that it's nonsense is at best ignorant. Research the subject before you go around making broad statements about it.
Those hearings didn't come to anything. This time. But the fact that they were held at all does mean this kind of thing is an option that has been considered and could reasonably be considered again. Again, trusting government with anything but national common defense is just Helsinki Syndrome. Does that mean Wall Street is any better? Not in my opinion.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
May 3, 2012 at 9:24 am
I'm with CrankyRat on this one. Maybe not the Glenn Beck part 🙂 In the last 10-12 years here in the USA we've seen internet bubbles, mortgage meltdowns, and financial crises. Mainly products of Wall Street. I fear these whiz kid mathematical geniuses will find another way to circumvent regulation like they did with CMOs and CDOs and reduce our nest eggs by half, or worse.
There's some talk that student loans that can't be paid back are the next bubble though it seems there's not enough money in there to cause that kind of damage.
May 3, 2012 at 10:43 am
Sir, with all due respect, you are misguided. When government debases the value the currency they are stealing the value of a days work form every person who works to earn that money.
If a days wage is worth less than it was when you signed up for the job that is theft plain and simple. When they print money at the rate they have been, your spending power declines. It is really a tax increase in disguise. Wall street can not print money or raise your taxes... only government can do that.
I tend to agree with sturner, and I can give a good example of a government doing exactly this to save itself. Germany, Post WWI when under the Versailles Treaty the German government (Weimar Republic) was ordered to payback vast sums of money to France under this treaty, which they could not do because they just didn't have it coming out of a prolonged devastating war. So, what did they do to compensate for it? The Weimar Republic government basically said to France, Ok you want money? you got it, and they started printing money so fast that just in a couple of years you had to have a wheelbarrow full of it just to go to the store and buy a loaf of bread. The currency eveyone had in their hands and in their accounts was worthless, and the goverment made it that way just to try and get itself out of jam. It's what caused the terrible depression and chaos in Germany in the mid-to-late 20's and ultiimately you know who took advantage of it and came to power. So please don't say it can't happen because it already did before. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
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