September 29, 2010 at 7:42 am
Personal experience of course, but I have yet to work with a PM (much less a BA) that added value to a project. The most successful enterprises I have been involved with let the users, developers, and database people work it out between them in a positive atmosphere. Perhaps I have just been lucky and worked with smart can-do people.
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
September 29, 2010 at 7:45 am
I'd love to have the opportunity to work somewhere where there is a BA and a PM and where I wasn't everything. Then at least I could complain about how bad the PM and BA are.:-P
Actually on one contract I had as an SSRS developer I worked with BA's which was great when they had time to actually give me specs for a report. There had about enough ready for me when I started for 2-3 days, then I usually had a day of waiting for them to get me the specs for the next report. I was being paid, but man, what a waste of money.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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September 29, 2010 at 7:45 am
GilaMonster (9/29/2010)
Right now I'm feeling the pain of project managers rather than BAsGot a project manager that holds a weekly meeting in which does the following:
* Asks the developers what they are currently busy with
* Updates his % completed on project plan
* Raises concerns that we are behind schedule (we know, the deadline we were given is an impossible one)
* Reminds us that the deadline can't be moved.
Other than wasting an hour of my time each week, how is that helping the project?
Yeah, I really don't understand weekly meetings. Sure, the manager needs to know what's going on, but wouldn't everyone else's time be saved if the manager went person to person and talked to them individually? It'd take the same amout of time for the manager and the rest of us could keep working instead of listening to the progress made on a project we'll have nothing to do on.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 29, 2010 at 7:47 am
GilaMonster (9/29/2010)
Brandie Tarvin (9/29/2010)
Secondly, he should be asking you what he can do to facilitate what you're doing. Not badgering you about the fact that you're behind schedule.An extension of the deadline would be nice. We're doing 6 months of work in less than 2 months. However since the delivery date was communicated to lots of important people long before the design was done, that's no going to help. I've been saying since day 1 that the timeframes are not achievable.
Just found out that the PM promised the users that they can see the reports on monday (as in next week). Fat bloody chance in hell, I'm still revising the DB design.
Ugh, good luck!
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 29, 2010 at 7:48 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/29/2010)
GilaMonster (9/29/2010)
Right now I'm feeling the pain of project managers rather than BAsGot a project manager that holds a weekly meeting in which does the following:
* Asks the developers what they are currently busy with
* Updates his % completed on project plan
* Raises concerns that we are behind schedule (we know, the deadline we were given is an impossible one)
* Reminds us that the deadline can't be moved.
Other than wasting an hour of my time each week, how is that helping the project?
Yeah, I really don't understand weekly meetings. Sure, the manager needs to know what's going on, but wouldn't everyone else's time be saved if the manager went person to person and talked to them individually? It'd take the same amout of time for the manager and the rest of us could keep working instead of listening to the progress made on a project we'll have nothing to do on.
Like Brandie, I'm working on a project using SCRUM, and we have our daily "stand up" in the morning to give progress reports and report on road blocks. If the Scrum master does their job and keeps things on task it works well. When the scrum master lets things get off track then it sucks. I actually like it because it facilitates and requires communication and sometimes that can be an issue.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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September 29, 2010 at 7:49 am
Grant Fritchey (9/29/2010)
GilaMonster (9/29/2010)
Just found out that the PM promised the users that they can see the reports on monday (as in next week). Fat bloody chance in hell, I'm still revising the DB design.They'll probably just end up doing what we do around here. They'll release a piece of functionality or do a demo and declare the project "delivered on time." Then go back & finish it up.
The project isn't due until the end of next month. Why someone promised the user that he could see an end-to-end demo next week is absolutely beyond me. The database is still in flux, there's nothing more than test data in there, the data imports aren't finished and won't be for at least another week and we've just had to redesign a portion of database and front end.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
September 29, 2010 at 7:54 am
Jack Corbett (9/29/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/29/2010)
GilaMonster (9/29/2010)
Right now I'm feeling the pain of project managers rather than BAsGot a project manager that holds a weekly meeting in which does the following:
* Asks the developers what they are currently busy with
* Updates his % completed on project plan
* Raises concerns that we are behind schedule (we know, the deadline we were given is an impossible one)
* Reminds us that the deadline can't be moved.
Other than wasting an hour of my time each week, how is that helping the project?
Yeah, I really don't understand weekly meetings. Sure, the manager needs to know what's going on, but wouldn't everyone else's time be saved if the manager went person to person and talked to them individually? It'd take the same amout of time for the manager and the rest of us could keep working instead of listening to the progress made on a project we'll have nothing to do on.
Like Brandie, I'm working on a project using SCRUM, and we have our daily "stand up" in the morning to give progress reports and report on road blocks. If the Scrum master does their job and keeps things on task it works well. When the scrum master lets things get off track then it sucks. I actually like it because it facilitates and requires communication and sometimes that can be an issue.
Oh, I think there's a point to meetings. If you're all working on the same thing and are talking about problems so everyone can think about solutions or are working on design or getting the initial specs, etc...
My problem is with the weekly meeting where the entire department gets together and everyone says what they've done. No-one but the manager cares. In larger departments you waste 2+ hours a week trying not to fall asleep while other people talk about things you have nothing to do with. Even when they mention problems they're having, you're so far removed from what they're doing you're unlikely to be able to help.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 29, 2010 at 7:59 am
Stefan Krzywicki (9/29/2010)
Oh, I think there's a point to meetings. If you're all working on the same thing and are talking about problems so everyone can think about solutions or are working on design or getting the initial specs, etc...My problem is with the weekly meeting where the entire department gets together and everyone says what they've done. No-one but the manager cares. In larger departments you waste 2+ hours a week trying not to fall asleep while other people talk about things you have nothing to do with. Even when they mention problems they're having, you're so far removed from what they're doing you're unlikely to be able to help.
We have one of these every two weeks where I work. Horrifying waste of time.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
September 29, 2010 at 8:05 am
Grant Fritchey (9/29/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/29/2010)
Oh, I think there's a point to meetings. If you're all working on the same thing and are talking about problems so everyone can think about solutions or are working on design or getting the initial specs, etc...My problem is with the weekly meeting where the entire department gets together and everyone says what they've done. No-one but the manager cares. In larger departments you waste 2+ hours a week trying not to fall asleep while other people talk about things you have nothing to do with. Even when they mention problems they're having, you're so far removed from what they're doing you're unlikely to be able to help.
We have one of these every two weeks where I work. Horrifying waste of time.
Glad I don't have those, but I'm actually going to start pushing for monthly departmental meetings. Where I work there isn't enough communication, nor is there enough planning (long and short-term) going on, IMHO. I need to decide in the next few months if I'm staying here, and I need to know where the department is going in order to decide.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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September 29, 2010 at 8:15 am
So how do you all deal with a "maverick"/"lone ranger" coder? I think you all know what I mean. That person who goes off and does things however they want and hen get upset when you call them on it?
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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September 29, 2010 at 8:17 am
I had to post this for the "estimation" portion of project management:
http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-12-07/
Thanks,
Chad
September 29, 2010 at 8:19 am
Grant Fritchey (9/29/2010)
Stefan Krzywicki (9/29/2010)
Oh, I think there's a point to meetings. If you're all working on the same thing and are talking about problems so everyone can think about solutions or are working on design or getting the initial specs, etc...My problem is with the weekly meeting where the entire department gets together and everyone says what they've done. No-one but the manager cares. In larger departments you waste 2+ hours a week trying not to fall asleep while other people talk about things you have nothing to do with. Even when they mention problems they're having, you're so far removed from what they're doing you're unlikely to be able to help.
We have one of these every two weeks where I work. Horrifying waste of time.
The worst are when I'm the only tech person in a business department, putting together a tool for them to use in their daily business. I don't care about what they're talking about and they don't understand what I'm talking about. I make sure I understand their business process, but what they've done that week just doesn't matter to me.
I had a manager when I was a consultant at one of these jobs that required me to be at every departmental meeting, even ones where they were discussing confidential information like bonuses and salaries. Hard to be required to be at a meeting where you're trying hard not to listen.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 29, 2010 at 8:22 am
Jack Corbett (9/29/2010)
So how do you all deal with a "maverick"/"lone ranger" coder? I think you all know what I mean. That person who goes off and does things however they want and hen get upset when you call them on it?
Management does have its uses, as do meetings. I just think there's too much of both.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
September 29, 2010 at 8:25 am
Jeez, this thread still going. I wonder if one had to search for '%this thread still going%' if this thread would return the highest count...
Max
September 29, 2010 at 8:30 am
Brandie Tarvin (9/29/2010)
GilaMonster (9/29/2010)
Got a project manager that holds a weekly meeting in which does the following:* Asks the developers what they are currently busy with
* Updates his % completed on project plan
* Raises concerns that we are behind schedule (we know, the deadline we were given is an impossible one)
* Reminds us that the deadline can't be moved.
Other than wasting an hour of my time each week, how is that helping the project?
It's not. First, that meeting should only be taking 15 minutes. Secondly, he should be asking you what he can do to facilitate what you're doing. Not badgering you about the fact that you're behind schedule.
Obviously he's got the whole Direction of Input wrong. He's supposed to be supporting you, not you supporting him.
Exactly. Project managers should support both sides, and help to manage expectations on both sides.
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