July 26, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
I agree that the advice is bad, but I think only because it is so brief. Taken as it was written, someone will make mistakes but it's because the information isn't complete, not because it is incorrect. Jason might be right - I'm not a language expert (I only know one language and I'm still not fluent), but it may be they don't understand the implication of the phrasing they used.
Just taking the 2nd section:
... Use clustered and non-clustered indexes with caution: True, if you add indexes with reckless abandon, that will lead to very real pain. The phrasing here implies that any use AT ALL should be with caution, which is sort of true, you should carefully consider what to index, but almost every table will benefit from at least some indexing (at least one exception being a 1-page table, right?).
... Do not use indexes on tables that you update often: True, a ton of indexes in a OLTP environment is bad. However the phrasing here again implies "At all", which hopefully was not what was intended.
... In order to minimize execution time... you should use a covering index: True again, but covering indexes have their downsides as well. You need to weigh the benefits of a covering index against the maintenance of an index with 20 (or whatever) columns in it. That wasn't drawn out and if someone creates covering indexes for all their queries, there will be some very real pain (unless, of course, the system is completely 100% OLAP with no data modifications).
In my opinion, the issue here was the brevity, the brevity wasn't mentioned, and completeness was implied. The "tip" is too short for the subject matter covered and doesn't draw out the variety of factors to consider, nor even that other factors even exist.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
I agree with you that the advice isn't all bad, if you already know what you're doing.
HOWEVER, this is the Internet. Last I checked, if you don't want to provide full data on something, you can provide a link (or many) to more complete information on the subject. There's no problem with brevity, if it were "Use clustered and non-clustered indexes with caution, as guided by (three or four good links here)". However, as written, it pretty much says don't use indexing. Also, it's very, very rare that a reasonable clustered index will cause problems on a table, so that part of that line is overkill.
The advice can be read in a way that's helpful to people who don't need help on the subjects raised. Nobody needs to tell me to be careful in my indexing. I know what that means, I know how to weigh the trade-offs on insert/update/delete performance vs select performance. I know how to plan a good leading edge for an index. I also don't need that piece of advice. So, the people who need advice on it are given a wrong impression and the people who don't need to be told it won't benefit from it. Hence, shouldn't have been written as it has potential negative effects and no real benefits.
The rest of it is the same way. It has no benefit to people who already know it, and, as written, can easily mislead people who do need advice on the subject. Hence, negative value, or at best zero value.
Since it could easily have positive value if they'd simply linked to good articles on each bullet point, I consider it lazy and potentially harmful. Hence my comments about it's likely effects.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 26, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it.
Not from me - I tend to agree with you.
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
July 26, 2011 at 2:15 pm
GSquared (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
I agree that the advice is bad, but I think only because it is so brief. Taken as it was written, someone will make mistakes but it's because the information isn't complete, not because it is incorrect. Jason might be right - I'm not a language expert (I only know one language and I'm still not fluent), but it may be they don't understand the implication of the phrasing they used.
Just taking the 2nd section:
... Use clustered and non-clustered indexes with caution: True, if you add indexes with reckless abandon, that will lead to very real pain. The phrasing here implies that any use AT ALL should be with caution, which is sort of true, you should carefully consider what to index, but almost every table will benefit from at least some indexing (at least one exception being a 1-page table, right?).
... Do not use indexes on tables that you update often: True, a ton of indexes in a OLTP environment is bad. However the phrasing here again implies "At all", which hopefully was not what was intended.
... In order to minimize execution time... you should use a covering index: True again, but covering indexes have their downsides as well. You need to weigh the benefits of a covering index against the maintenance of an index with 20 (or whatever) columns in it. That wasn't drawn out and if someone creates covering indexes for all their queries, there will be some very real pain (unless, of course, the system is completely 100% OLAP with no data modifications).
In my opinion, the issue here was the brevity, the brevity wasn't mentioned, and completeness was implied. The "tip" is too short for the subject matter covered and doesn't draw out the variety of factors to consider, nor even that other factors even exist.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
I agree with you that the advice isn't all bad, if you already know what you're doing.
HOWEVER, this is the Internet. Last I checked, if you don't want to provide full data on something, you can provide a link (or many) to more complete information on the subject. There's no problem with brevity, if it were "Use clustered and non-clustered indexes with caution, as guided by (three or four good links here)". However, as written, it pretty much says don't use indexing. Also, it's very, very rare that a reasonable clustered index will cause problems on a table, so that part of that line is overkill.
The advice can be read in a way that's helpful to people who don't need help on the subjects raised. Nobody needs to tell me to be careful in my indexing. I know what that means, I know how to weigh the trade-offs on insert/update/delete performance vs select performance. I know how to plan a good leading edge for an index. I also don't need that piece of advice. So, the people who need advice on it are given a wrong impression and the people who don't need to be told it won't benefit from it. Hence, shouldn't have been written as it has potential negative effects and no real benefits.
The rest of it is the same way. It has no benefit to people who already know it, and, as written, can easily mislead people who do need advice on the subject. Hence, negative value, or at best zero value.
Since it could easily have positive value if they'd simply linked to good articles on each bullet point, I consider it lazy and potentially harmful. Hence my comments about it's likely effects.
I agree with you, and I think we're on the same page. The depth wasn't there and it was ambiguous. We're just phrasing it differently from different perspectives. I gave points for effort and tried to look for a few nuggets of truth. I also tried to take it from his/her perspective and see if there might be a reason why it seemed so bad. Yeah, I probably gave too much benefit, but that's just me. Your perspective doesn't bother me and I hope mine doesn't bother you too much. I think the best thing for me to do now is go out and post a constructive comment, maybe I'll work something up.
Thanks,
Chad
July 26, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
Actually you can't. Just 1 look at me and you're dust.
Anakin :alien:
HAHAHAHA! I've tried to think of a snappy comeback, but my favorite Star Wars character is... well.... dead. 😀
July 26, 2011 at 2:19 pm
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
GSquared (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
I agree that the advice is bad, but I think only because it is so brief. Taken as it was written, someone will make mistakes but it's because the information isn't complete, not because it is incorrect. Jason might be right - I'm not a language expert (I only know one language and I'm still not fluent), but it may be they don't understand the implication of the phrasing they used.
Just taking the 2nd section:
... Use clustered and non-clustered indexes with caution: True, if you add indexes with reckless abandon, that will lead to very real pain. The phrasing here implies that any use AT ALL should be with caution, which is sort of true, you should carefully consider what to index, but almost every table will benefit from at least some indexing (at least one exception being a 1-page table, right?).
... Do not use indexes on tables that you update often: True, a ton of indexes in a OLTP environment is bad. However the phrasing here again implies "At all", which hopefully was not what was intended.
... In order to minimize execution time... you should use a covering index: True again, but covering indexes have their downsides as well. You need to weigh the benefits of a covering index against the maintenance of an index with 20 (or whatever) columns in it. That wasn't drawn out and if someone creates covering indexes for all their queries, there will be some very real pain (unless, of course, the system is completely 100% OLAP with no data modifications).
In my opinion, the issue here was the brevity, the brevity wasn't mentioned, and completeness was implied. The "tip" is too short for the subject matter covered and doesn't draw out the variety of factors to consider, nor even that other factors even exist.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
I agree with you that the advice isn't all bad, if you already know what you're doing.
HOWEVER, this is the Internet. Last I checked, if you don't want to provide full data on something, you can provide a link (or many) to more complete information on the subject. There's no problem with brevity, if it were "Use clustered and non-clustered indexes with caution, as guided by (three or four good links here)". However, as written, it pretty much says don't use indexing. Also, it's very, very rare that a reasonable clustered index will cause problems on a table, so that part of that line is overkill.
The advice can be read in a way that's helpful to people who don't need help on the subjects raised. Nobody needs to tell me to be careful in my indexing. I know what that means, I know how to weigh the trade-offs on insert/update/delete performance vs select performance. I know how to plan a good leading edge for an index. I also don't need that piece of advice. So, the people who need advice on it are given a wrong impression and the people who don't need to be told it won't benefit from it. Hence, shouldn't have been written as it has potential negative effects and no real benefits.
The rest of it is the same way. It has no benefit to people who already know it, and, as written, can easily mislead people who do need advice on the subject. Hence, negative value, or at best zero value.
Since it could easily have positive value if they'd simply linked to good articles on each bullet point, I consider it lazy and potentially harmful. Hence my comments about it's likely effects.
I agree with you, and I think we're on the same page. The depth wasn't there and it was ambiguous. We're just phrasing it differently from different perspectives. I gave points for effort and tried to look for a few nuggets of truth. I also tried to take it from his/her perspective and see if there might be a reason why it seemed so bad. Yeah, I probably gave too much benefit, but that's just me. Your perspective doesn't bother me and I hope mine doesn't bother you too much. I think the best thing for me to do now is go out and post a constructive comment, maybe I'll work something up.
Thanks,
Chad
Makes sense me to.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 26, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
Actually you can't. Just 1 look at me and you're dust.
Anakin :alien:
HAHAHAHA! I've tried to think of a snappy comeback, but my favorite Star Wars character is... well.... dead. 😀
Like I said, you got NOTHING on me :-D.
July 26, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
Actually you can't. Just 1 look at me and you're dust.
Anakin :alien:
HAHAHAHA! I've tried to think of a snappy comeback, but my favorite Star Wars character is... well.... dead. 😀
They're all dead! It was "Long, Long Ago" after all.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
July 26, 2011 at 2:35 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
Actually you can't. Just 1 look at me and you're dust.
Anakin :alien:
HAHAHAHA! I've tried to think of a snappy comeback, but my favorite Star Wars character is... well.... dead. 😀
Like I said, you got NOTHING on me :-D.
Says the guy whose icon is "Anakin I-got-killed-by-my-son-and-my-boss Skywalker".
Of course, that reminds me of the Jerry Springer Star Wars bit. "He made me call him 'master'", says Vader of Palpatine, when asked about their "relationship".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 26, 2011 at 2:42 pm
Can you imagine all the heartache Darth Maul would have saved us if he'd just lopped Anakin into teeny little bits in the desert the first time they met? So much whining, solved...
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
July 26, 2011 at 2:44 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
Actually you can't. Just 1 look at me and you're dust.
Anakin :alien:
HAHAHAHA! I've tried to think of a snappy comeback, but my favorite Star Wars character is... well.... dead. 😀
They're all dead! It was "Long, Long Ago" after all.
At least I made it all the way to the last 5 minutes of the last film, unlike some other character. 😀
July 26, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/26/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
Grant Fritchey (7/26/2011)
Can't help it, I have to share. I was doing some Boogling or Ginging, whatever we call it now, when I stumbled across a really scary bit of advice. It's just frightening what's out there.Be nice. I just had to share.
Alright - flame me now. I'm in a good mood, hopefully I can take it. 😛
Chad
Actually you can't. Just 1 look at me and you're dust.
Anakin :alien:
HAHAHAHA! I've tried to think of a snappy comeback, but my favorite Star Wars character is... well.... dead. 😀
They're all dead! It was "Long, Long Ago" after all.
At least I made it all the way to the last 5 minutes of the last film, unlike some other character. 😀
Like my favourite Starwars character (previous avatar)
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 26, 2011 at 3:30 pm
<Darth Vader>: Luke!
<Luke>: Yes father?
<Darth Vader>: I know what you're getting for your birthday.
<Luke>: But father, how could you know what I'm getting for my birthday?
<Darth Vader>: I felt your presents.
😛
July 26, 2011 at 3:32 pm
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
<Darth Vader>: Luke!<Luke>: Yes father?
<Darth Vader>: I know what you're getting for your birthday.
<Luke>: But father, how could you know what I'm getting for my birthday?
<Darth Vader>: I felt your presents.
😛
Dad, that's your daughter. I just found out myself. Please tell me you didn't unwrap her too....
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
July 26, 2011 at 3:57 pm
Craig Farrell (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
<Darth Vader>: Luke!<Luke>: Yes father?
<Darth Vader>: I know what you're getting for your birthday.
<Luke>: But father, how could you know what I'm getting for my birthday?
<Darth Vader>: I felt your presents.
😛
Dad, that's your daughter. I just found out myself. Please tell me you didn't unwrap her too....
*groan* Both of you are condemned to the Sarlaac pit.
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
July 26, 2011 at 4:52 pm
Craig Farrell (7/26/2011)
Chad Crawford (7/26/2011)
<Darth Vader>: Luke!<Luke>: Yes father?
<Darth Vader>: I know what you're getting for your birthday.
<Luke>: But father, how could you know what I'm getting for my birthday?
<Darth Vader>: I felt your presents.
😛
Dad, that's your daughter. I just found out myself. Please tell me you didn't unwrap her too....
Beyond bad. 50 lashes with a wet noodle.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
Viewing 15 posts - 28,411 through 28,425 (of 66,000 total)
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