March 28, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Please explain the lack of relevance if PASS is not inclusive and it will decide who is qualified to be MCJ.<<
Not inclusive of what? You are making some pretty serious charges by the way, PASS has high integrity as an organisation independant of Microsoft and perhaps the largest group of MS product users who are so. It is equally serious to be an MVP and make the kind of accusations you make against Microsoft itself, if you value your title that is.
As Lynn said we are not at any conclusive stage yet on the MCJ thing it is an acronym we coined and just putting out some ideas. We kinda thought you had the dignity to leave but you keep coming back and distracting the discussion with all kinds of random accusations.
I would suggest atleast please apologize and take leave of the forum.
March 28, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
There are a lot of technical experts even in this site who will not pass the MCM because of their differences with Microsoft implementation.I would definitely be one of those. I probably couldn't pass the Developer's exam without some serious study. MS and I have a whole different way of doing things especially according to their MS Press books.
As a serious side bar, I just picked up the 2k8 Database Development Training Kit book for the 70-433 exam. I'm seriously thinking about getting my money back... from what I've read in the first chapter, it's one of the worst books on the subject of SQL Server and T-SQL I've ever read.
Hi Jeff,
There are reasons you are not part of the PASS leadership which I know from experience to be not inclusive because Microsoft salesmen run large chapters and appoints the unqualified. I had to start my own group so I don't waste my time attending. The credential being academically discussed may cost Microsoft at least one hundred million dollars in sales because Buick employees may not qualify so is 75 percent of Indiana SQL Server users. Those are just first glance and IBM just launched twenty five dollars a month web version of Cognos, there is no alternative in the Microsoft product stack because Microsoft built SharePoint about two years or more after IBM put together what is now WebSphere.
Why Plutocracy within SQL Server, the cost of letting the not necessarily skilled run large engineering departments. The unskilled Plutocracy talked to their appointed outside Plutocrats ignoring ideas from the skilled within Microsoft and outside the result was PerformancePoint . BI stack is missing 60 percent needed engineering. When PerformancePoint was depreciated pun intended I read a blog comment from a Microsoft employee that read like I posted it.
Also, from some brief research, PerformancePoint hasn't been depreciated as much as it is now a part of SharePoint Enterprise.
March 28, 2010 at 3:59 pm
dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
Please explain the lack of relevance if PASS is not inclusive and it will decide who is qualified to be MCJ.<<Not inclusive of what? You are making some pretty serious charges by the way, PASS has high integrity as an organisation independant of Microsoft and perhaps the largest group of MS product users who are so. It is equally serious to be an MVP and make the kind of accusations you make against Microsoft itself, if you value your title that is.
As Lynn said we are not at any conclusive stage yet on the MCJ thing it is an acronym we coined and just putting out some ideas. We kinda thought you had the dignity to leave but you keep coming back and distracting the discussion with all kinds of random accusations.
I would suggest atleast please apologize and take leave of the forum.
If you look carefully, it appears her MVP status was not renewed in 2007. That could explain in part her feelings regarding Microsoft. However, considering she earns her living of Microsoft products, it makes you wonder.
March 28, 2010 at 3:59 pm
When PerformancePoint was depreciated pun intended.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 28, 2010 at 4:04 pm
I did'nt notice that...yes bashing big companies is a hobby for lots of people. But wrong place, wrong forum. Anyway hope she has found other stuff to do now.
March 28, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Nope, she hasn't.
March 28, 2010 at 4:18 pm
dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
I did'nt notice that...yes bashing big companies is a hobby for lots of people. But wrong place, wrong forum. Anyway hope she has found other stuff to do now.
I will stop because it is easier to say I am Microsoft bashing, negative and not contributing than to address the very important issues I have raised.
BTW the SQL Server you use today is the work of the late Jim Grey who told IBM no. So I am now saying no to whatever comes from this discussion. Now have a nice day.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 28, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
I did'nt notice that...yes bashing big companies is a hobby for lots of people. But wrong place, wrong forum. Anyway hope she has found other stuff to do now.I will stop because it is easier to say I am Microsoft bashing, negative and not contributing than to address the very important issues I have raised.
BTW the SQL Server you use today is the work of the late Jim Grey who told IBM no. So I am now saying no to whatever comes from this discussion. Now have a nice day.
I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what issues you are talking about. I have reread all the posts since we began talking about our proposed MCJ and I fail to read anything regarding any issues that you supposedly have presented.
If there are issues regarding this try presenting them in a clear and concise manner along with your suggestions for addressing those issues.
March 28, 2010 at 11:51 pm
dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
Personally, no. I think i need some kind of certification for two reasons -1 Majority employers seek certification -and in my experience that has little in common with the organisational culture or how great the place is to work in. It is just some rule somebody made and they still have it. I'd rather get it over with to get in than fight their norms as it lowers the number of places i can go to for a job.
2 I am all for being 'grilled' on the subject the problem i have though is this, with largely expanding features sql has it is very rare an individual would fit in like a glove - my company needs basic SQL dba skills, Clustering, Transactional Replication, SSIS and SSRS. Another company needs Mirroring, Merge Replication, SSAS and something.... How in the world would i pass a grilling test on the latter? Atleast certs give me an overview of various replication methodologies and i can say i did this kind of replication so the other one may not be that hard and i know the concept behind it. And really that is all it really is. But you can lose a great candidate to being picky on specific areas like that and it is happening increasingly, unfortunately.
Perhaps MCJ can also come up with a checklist of technologies and what the candidate can do, can do with some learning and not do at all, just a thought.
There is no doubt in my mind that a properly constructed MCJ program with peer reviews and the whole gambit would ease the mind of a great many HR managers. But, as you pointed out, you CAN lose a great candidate by being too picky in specific areas and that is the point of the interview... to find out if a candidate is great or not even if they have no experience in a particular area that you may need which brings us full circle to what I said before... experience doesn't matter. 😉 What great and rare metal might one miss out on if the HR manager does the filtering especially if they know squat about SQL Server and haven't spent a minute in the hot dark crevices of computational hell during an IT "all-night-death-march"? I would be appalled if the company I work for took on the ring-knocking attitude of "MCJ's, MS Certifieds, or degreed only need apply".
On your first point... I agree... when in Rome, do like the Romans.
On your second point... I wish HR and IT managers would read the paragraph I wrote above.
--Jeff Moden
March 29, 2010 at 12:24 am
Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
The credential being academically discussed may cost Microsoft at least one hundred million dollars in sales because Buick employees may not qualify so is 75 percent of Indiana SQL Server users.
Oddly enough and probably to the utter amazement and total disbelief of the others engaged on this thread, I actually understand that. Let's hope displaced Buick employees, the Indiana SQL Server users, and some of those on this thread understand, as well.
--Jeff Moden
March 29, 2010 at 12:44 am
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
The credential being academically discussed may cost Microsoft at least one hundred million dollars in sales because Buick employees may not qualify so is 75 percent of Indiana SQL Server users.Oddly enough and probably to the utter amazement and total disbelief of the others engaged on this thread, I actually understand that. Let's hope displaced Buick employees, the Indiana SQL Server users, and some of those on this thread understand, as well.
Jeff, can you explain or point to a source of information that goes into the details of this. Thnx.
March 29, 2010 at 6:28 am
Jeff Moden (3/28/2010)
dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
Personally, no. I think i need some kind of certification for two reasons -1 Majority employers seek certification -and in my experience that has little in common with the organisational culture or how great the place is to work in. It is just some rule somebody made and they still have it. I'd rather get it over with to get in than fight their norms as it lowers the number of places i can go to for a job.
2 I am all for being 'grilled' on the subject the problem i have though is this, with largely expanding features sql has it is very rare an individual would fit in like a glove - my company needs basic SQL dba skills, Clustering, Transactional Replication, SSIS and SSRS. Another company needs Mirroring, Merge Replication, SSAS and something.... How in the world would i pass a grilling test on the latter? Atleast certs give me an overview of various replication methodologies and i can say i did this kind of replication so the other one may not be that hard and i know the concept behind it. And really that is all it really is. But you can lose a great candidate to being picky on specific areas like that and it is happening increasingly, unfortunately.
Perhaps MCJ can also come up with a checklist of technologies and what the candidate can do, can do with some learning and not do at all, just a thought.
There is no doubt in my mind that a properly constructed MCJ program with peer reviews and the whole gambit would ease the mind of a great many HR managers. But, as you pointed out, you CAN lose a great candidate by being too picky in specific areas and that is the point of the interview... to find out if a candidate is great or not even if they have no experience in a particular area that you may need which brings us full circle to what I said before... experience doesn't matter. 😉 What great and rare metal might one miss out on if the HR manager does the filtering especially if they know squat about SQL Server and haven't spent a minute in the hot dark crevices of computational hell during an IT "all-night-death-march"? I would be appalled if the company I work for took on the ring-knocking attitude of "MCJ's, MS Certifieds, or degreed only need apply".
On your first point... I agree... when in Rome, do like the Romans.
On your second point... I wish HR and IT managers would read the paragraph I wrote above.
Jeff, part of the reason i have seen this happens is managers are only informed on the technologies they use..i mean how can you interview someone on a technology you dont know much about? How much a manager needs to know is a very debatable subject but majority know a *little something* of what they use and consider it enough. There are the rare few who have graduated from ground level DBAs and want to keep up with the technology for for most it is just too much effort. Thoughts?
March 29, 2010 at 6:30 am
Well..my user group serves southern indiana and i dont see any reason why those folks will not qualify..and whether or not MS is going to run this certs itself is not clear, we are not that far yet and by God i'd be thrilled if we got that far. So if 75 % of northern Indiana folks and Buick story..perhaps for some other thread ?::-)
March 29, 2010 at 6:39 am
I've been primarily lurking, but I've decided to put in two points.
First, I'm not crazy about a lot of the suggested directions for a middle-level certification that have been put forward so far. It's not that any of the ideas are bad, but accumulatively it looks too much like we're unionizing the position with the time in rate requirements, the peer review board and other things. I'm sure it's reflective of how I came into the industry, but I don't want to see us eliminate the possibility of people to simply hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate.
Second, PASS is not a perfect organization, but suggesting it's not inclusive is pretty nuts. Just take a look at the board. But when it comes to the local chapters, the vast majority of them are run out of local businesses or local colleges by volunteers. I know because I'm running mine through a local community technical college and most of the other chapter leaders I've communicated with are the same. There are chapters in large communities, where Microsoft has a prescense, that are run out of Microsoft offices. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find a few that are even run by Microsoft employees, but I'd be willing to put major money down that that is the exception, not the rule. I know chapter leaders can, and do, treat their chapters like private little fiefdom's, but all you have to do is run for the leadership of the chapter in the next election to make changes or volunteer. It's an all volunteer run organization except for the headquarters staff who do all the scut work to keep the lights on & the web up. The single most successful program within PASS, at this point (SQL Saturday could be better, eventually) is the Women In Technology group. It's an actual force in the industry and it was built from the volunteers and board of PASS. Whip on PASS where appropriate, but inclusiveness is absolutely not an appropriate area.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
March 29, 2010 at 7:06 am
Grant Fritchey (3/29/2010)
I've been primarily lurking, but I've decided to put in two points.First, I'm not crazy about a lot of the suggested directions for a middle-level certification that have been put forward so far. It's not that any of the ideas are bad, but accumulatively it looks too much like we're unionizing the position with the time in rate requirements, the peer review board and other things. I'm sure it's reflective of how I came into the industry, but I don't want to see us eliminate the possibility of people to simply hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate.
Second, PASS is not a perfect organization, but suggesting it's not inclusive is pretty nuts. Just take a look at the board. But when it comes to the local chapters, the vast majority of them are run out of local businesses or local colleges by volunteers. I know because I'm running mine through a local community technical college and most of the other chapter leaders I've communicated with are the same. There are chapters in large communities, where Microsoft has a prescense, that are run out of Microsoft offices. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find a few that are even run by Microsoft employees, but I'd be willing to put major money down that that is the exception, not the rule. I know chapter leaders can, and do, treat their chapters like private little fiefdom's, but all you have to do is run for the leadership of the chapter in the next election to make changes or volunteer. It's an all volunteer run organization except for the headquarters staff who do all the scut work to keep the lights on & the web up. The single most successful program within PASS, at this point (SQL Saturday could be better, eventually) is the Women In Technology group. It's an actual force in the industry and it was built from the volunteers and board of PASS. Whip on PASS where appropriate, but inclusiveness is absolutely not an appropriate area.
Grant,
I can understand you concerns. We would be interested in hearing your suggestons to address those concerns. To be honest, I think we are trying to put together something that fits between MCITP and MCM and would represent something that truely indicates that the bearer has reasonable knowledge and experience with MS SQL Server. Something that would be difficult to obtain from braindumps, and would (if a candidate hold it) provide HR and hiring managers some level of confidance that the individual actually knows something.
Microsofts MCM is, in my opinion, out of reach for most of us, but if we had that certification it would demonstrate significant knowledge beyond many others after having spent three weeks and 18,000 + hotel/food/other expenses to obtain. Personally, I can think of many other things to spend that kind of money on other than MCM, getting out of debt comes to mind.
There needs to be something between MCITP and MCM that is easier for the masses to achieve, but not as easy to achieve as the MCITP.
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