April 1, 2010 at 1:40 pm
So we have the model by PMP as one suggestion.
Anybody have anymore suggestions as to models to research and potentially emulate?
I think the direction the conversation needs to go would be to first decide on some items to research, then perform the research and then come back report and discuss.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 1, 2010 at 1:50 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/1/2010)
So we have the model by PMP as one suggestion.Anybody have anymore suggestions as to models to research and potentially emulate?
I think the direction the conversation needs to go would be to first decide on some items to research, then perform the research and then come back report and discuss.
Another way to evaluate TOS might be by looking at the completion times for a variety of other exams, etc. The problem is would other exams those for MCITP etc be required? If yes, then the first exam passed could start the clock.
Pro: it gives a definite point in time
Cons: It doesn't mean the individual was working as a DBA, they might have just been studying while trying to find a job or break into a new field. It hurts people like Lynn who currently isn't certified but could easily pass the tests to obtain that certification.
How does MS handle the 5 year TOS for the MCM?
April 1, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Five or more years of experience with SQL Server 7.0 or later: installing, configuring, and troubleshooting
One or more years of experience with SQL Server 2005 or later: installing, configuring, and troubleshooting
Thorough understanding of SQL Server design and architecture
Thorough understanding of SQL Server core components and dependencies, such as online transaction processing (OLTP), high availability, disaster recovery, performance-tuning optimization, storage, security, manageability, and data distribution technologies
Ability to speak, understand, and write fluent English
Nothing in the FAQ about how the time in service is actually qualified.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 1, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Michael Meierruth (4/1/2010)
So what was the purpose of this discussion on 'table scan vs clustered index scan'.
That discussion evolved from a comment being made about someone not thinking that an "Index Scan" was faster than a "Table Scan" because it had the word "Index" in it.
Do you think this is something useful to put on the MCJ exam?
Actually, I think that this (and questions like this) would be the type of questions we should be looking for. It shows the type of knowledge that this certification should convey. For this level of certification, I feel that it is appropriate.
Another question that I've seen asked is "how many types of indexes are there?" The questioner is typically looking for "2" - clustered and non-clustered. But there are also XML, Full-Text and spatial, so the proper answer is "5". However, clustered, non-clustered and spatial indexes, at a deeper level, are "B-Tree" indexes. I have heard (but cannot find the documention that explicitly states this to support this right now) that XML are also B-Tree. Full-Text indexes are "inverted, stacked, compressed index structures" (whatever this means???). So we are at 2 (or 3, depending on what XML indexes are) types of indexes. IMO, this type of knowledge is what this certification should be going after.
Edit: Struck out "not".
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 1, 2010 at 2:06 pm
WayneS (4/1/2010)
Michael Meierruth (4/1/2010)
So what was the purpose of this discussion on 'table scan vs clustered index scan'.That discussion evolved from a comment being made about someone not thinking that an "Index Scan" was faster than a "Table Scan" because it had the word "Index" in it.
Do you think this is something useful to put on the MCJ exam?
Actually, I think that this (and questions like this) would be the type of questions we should be looking for. It shows the type of knowledge that this certification should convey. For this level of certification, I feel that it is appropriate.
Another question that I've seen asked is "how many types of indexes are there?" The questioner is typically looking for "2" - clustered and non-clustered. But there are also XML, Full-Text and spatial, so the proper answer is "5". However, clustered, non-clustered and spatial indexes, at a deeper level, are "B-Tree" indexes. I have heard (but cannot find the documention that explicitly states this to support this right now) that XML are also B-Tree. Full-Text indexes are "inverted, stacked, compressed index structures" (whatever this means???). So we are at 2 (or 3, depending on what XML indexes are) types of indexes. IMO, this type of knowledge is what this certification should be going after.
I think these types of questions that get deeper into the subject certainly are what is needed at a higher level certification. This type of certification is kind of like declaring your major and then taking the more advanced courses to complete the degree. (Make Sense?)
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 1, 2010 at 2:10 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/1/2010)
I think these types of questions that get deeper into the subject certainly are what is needed at a higher level certification. This type of certification is kind of like declaring your major and then taking the more advanced courses to complete the degree. (Make Sense?)
It absolutely does make sense, and I agree 100% with this.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 1, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Luke L (4/1/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/1/2010)
So we have the model by PMP as one suggestion.Anybody have anymore suggestions as to models to research and potentially emulate?
I think the direction the conversation needs to go would be to first decide on some items to research, then perform the research and then come back report and discuss.
Another way to evaluate TOS might be by looking at the completion times for a variety of other exams, etc. The problem is would other exams those for MCITP etc be required? If yes, then the first exam passed could start the clock.
Pro: it gives a definite point in time
Cons: It doesn't mean the individual was working as a DBA, they might have just been studying while trying to find a job or break into a new field. It hurts people like Lynn who currently isn't certified but could easily pass the tests to obtain that certification.
How does MS handle the 5 year TOS for the MCM?
IMO, the clock does not start upon completion of the MCITP, for the reason that you stated above... it doesn't mean the person was working as a DBA (or even working in Sql Server), and this is a time-in-service requirement.
Question: does this time-in-service requirement mean working "as a DBA"? There are a lot of people that are "accidental" DBAs, or are a DBA in conjunction with their primary role as a developer, i.e. being the de-facto DBA. IMO, the time-in-service requirement should mean "working with SQL Server", not necessarily being a DBA. In my particular case, I've got over a decade experience with SS, being the de-facto DBA while being a developer. I've only recently become a full-time DBA.
So, to answer the question of how to document the TOS for MCJ: I think that an employer (or employers) needs to verify that you have worked with SS for x period. This needs to be in writing (probably a form by the certifying organization (MS, PASS, etc.) that is attested to by someone at the company), that includes name, title, contact info for verification.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 1, 2010 at 2:44 pm
WayneS (4/1/2010)
Question: does this time-in-service requirement mean working "as a DBA"? There are a lot of people that are "accidental" DBAs, or are a DBA in conjunction with their primary role as a developer, i.e. being the de-facto DBA. IMO, the time-in-service requirement should mean "working with SQL Server", not necessarily being a DBA. In my particular case, I've got over a decade experience with SS, being the de-facto DBA while being a developer. I've only recently become a full-time DBA.
I guess that opens up some more questions. My thinking is as a Database Professional, whether explicitly or by accident. If not broadened to envelope all professionals, then you would have to limit the MCJ to specific certifications. Another idea is to implement multiple MCJ certs within the Database world since there are so many things at which you could specialize.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 1, 2010 at 3:25 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/1/2010)
Another idea is to implement multiple MCJ certs within the Database world since there are so many things at which you could specialize.
I can see this point, since there is an MCITP for BI as well.
My thinking is as a Database Professional, whether explicitly or by accident.
If by "Database Professional" you mean "working with SQL Server", then I agree. I don't think that you should have to be working with Sql Server full-time, as a DBA, to be able to get this cert. If that's not what you mean, can you elaborate a bit more on what you do mean?
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 1, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Correct. As a SQL Server Database professional. It shouldn't matter that you are a developer, BI Specialist, or Admin. Working with SQL Server is the important underscore.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 1, 2010 at 6:59 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/1/2010)
Correct. As a SQL Server Database professional. It shouldn't matter that you are a developer, BI Specialist, or Admin. Working with SQL Server is the important underscore.
Let's look at the MCM for a moment, does it specify which MCITP you need to hold? Checking the requirements, it requires MCITP Database Administrator and Database Developer. This tells me that it isn't a BI certification. Would it make sense to split the the proposed MCJ into two certifications, MCJ SQL Server (DBA/Developer) and MCJ Business Intelligence (BI, as if it weren't obvious)?
I can see merging the DBA/Developer as the knowledge and experience of both should start to merge. More experienced DBA/Developers should begin to see things in the same ways. If we did this, do we require that the prospect also have both MCITP certifications for the MCJ SQL Server or should one or the other be sufficient? Personally, I go for the later.
As I think about this, there should probably be two tests if we split the certification. A core test that is the same for both, then a second that focuses more on the specific area of expertise. For the MCJ SS, more on the engine, performance tuning, DR/HA, backup/restores. For the MCJ BI, the second test would focus more on SSIS, SSAS, SSRS and the various issues and problems more specific to the BI area.
April 1, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Lynn Pettis (4/1/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/1/2010)
Correct. As a SQL Server Database professional. It shouldn't matter that you are a developer, BI Specialist, or Admin. Working with SQL Server is the important underscore.Let's look at the MCM for a moment, does it specify which MCITP you need to hold? Checking the requirements, it requires MCITP Database Administrator and Database Developer. This tells me that it isn't a BI certification. Would it make sense to split the the proposed MCJ into two certifications, MCJ SQL Server (DBA/Developer) and MCJ Business Intelligence (BI, as if it weren't obvious)?
I can see merging the DBA/Developer as the knowledge and experience of both should start to merge. More experienced DBA/Developers should begin to see things in the same ways. If we did this, do we require that the prospect also have both MCITP certifications for the MCJ SQL Server or should one or the other be sufficient? Personally, I go for the later.
As I think about this, there should probably be two tests if we split the certification. A core test that is the same for both, then a second that focuses more on the specific area of expertise. For the MCJ SS, more on the engine, performance tuning, DR/HA, backup/restores. For the MCJ BI, the second test would focus more on SSIS, SSAS, SSRS and the various issues and problems more specific to the BI area.
I was thinking of splitting it out even more granularly. Having an MCJ for each of those specialties - one for SSIS, one for SSAS, one for SSRS, etc. I think, otherwise it would still lend itself to being too general.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 1, 2010 at 7:45 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/1/2010)
Lynn Pettis (4/1/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/1/2010)
Correct. As a SQL Server Database professional. It shouldn't matter that you are a developer, BI Specialist, or Admin. Working with SQL Server is the important underscore.Let's look at the MCM for a moment, does it specify which MCITP you need to hold? Checking the requirements, it requires MCITP Database Administrator and Database Developer. This tells me that it isn't a BI certification. Would it make sense to split the the proposed MCJ into two certifications, MCJ SQL Server (DBA/Developer) and MCJ Business Intelligence (BI, as if it weren't obvious)?
I can see merging the DBA/Developer as the knowledge and experience of both should start to merge. More experienced DBA/Developers should begin to see things in the same ways. If we did this, do we require that the prospect also have both MCITP certifications for the MCJ SQL Server or should one or the other be sufficient? Personally, I go for the later.
As I think about this, there should probably be two tests if we split the certification. A core test that is the same for both, then a second that focuses more on the specific area of expertise. For the MCJ SS, more on the engine, performance tuning, DR/HA, backup/restores. For the MCJ BI, the second test would focus more on SSIS, SSAS, SSRS and the various issues and problems more specific to the BI area.
I was thinking of splitting it out even more granularly. Having an MCJ for each of those specialties - one for SSIS, one for SSAS, one for SSRS, etc. I think, otherwise it would still lend itself to being too general.
I'm thinking more about the interaction between them in a BI environment. As you gain experience, you are going to find yourself working more closely with them as a unt than you might earlier where you may only be a Report Writer, or ETL Specialist, or DataMart Developer. You may be leading a small team where you are working with people in these areas and you really hould have a firm grasp of them all, but maybe not expert level. I would see that more in a MCM BI type certification if Microsoft were to develop one.
April 1, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Lynn Pettis (4/1/2010)
I'm thinking more about the interaction between them in a BI environment. As you gain experience, you are going to find yourself working more closely with them as a unt than you might earlier where you may only be a Report Writer, or ETL Specialist, or DataMart Developer. You may be leading a small team where you are working with people in these areas and you really hould have a firm grasp of them all, but maybe not expert level. I would see that more in a MCM BI type certification if Microsoft were to develop one.
I see where you're going with this. From what I understand about SSAS (and I know next to nothing about it), it's pretty much it's own specialty in and of itself.
So how about: MCJ-DBA, MCJ-SSAS and MCJ-BI (includes SSIS & SSRS)
If others feel that SSAS should be included in the MCJ-BI, I'm fine with that.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 2, 2010 at 6:08 am
I believe any database professional working on SQL Server should have measurable experience. The classification into DBA, Developer, BI seem fair enough.As far as tool specific categorisation that can get a little tricky, if we give room for that there may be some classifications needed for DBA also..lots of DBAs for example never get to work on enterprise, but they do know standard features pretty well...so do we make a sub classification of that too? Perhaps but it might just get a little too complex to handle.
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